Swirl Marks
#16
06-01-2005, 11:07 PM
I can't answer anything regarding 3M products since they're not utilized by me,, but...!
The best more surefire way to remove product (such as polishes and waxes), is to make use of an Ultimate Wipe. If you do decide to buy them, here's a hint: buy in bulk! I bought 5-6 of them, you need that many. Because they are microfiber they tend to 'soak up' fast with product, so you're constantly wiping and re-folding the towel and flipping it.
I like to use a trusted name...Meguiar's keeps me at ease
That can be a big issue in your swirl problem, too. Sometimes the towels and/or applicators can inflict swirls when they are not supposed to.
Now, to apply product, say by hand.... On the Meguiar's website there are a few applicators I saw:
Even Coat Applicator for waxes;
High Tech Applicator Pad this is more or less Meg's 'regular yellow applicator.' The description says you can use it for waxes but I wouldn't hesitate to use it for polishes as well. I've used it on trim dressing too.
Some person on here said they found #9 at Pep Boy's.... I haven't been able to buy my professional products through say Advanced or Autozone.... Meg's is your best bet.
When applying polish or wax by hand, you should move your hand in small circular motions, sort of mimicking what the machine polisher would do.
The best more surefire way to remove product (such as polishes and waxes), is to make use of an Ultimate Wipe. If you do decide to buy them, here's a hint: buy in bulk! I bought 5-6 of them, you need that many. Because they are microfiber they tend to 'soak up' fast with product, so you're constantly wiping and re-folding the towel and flipping it.
I like to use a trusted name...Meguiar's keeps me at ease
That can be a big issue in your swirl problem, too. Sometimes the towels and/or applicators can inflict swirls when they are not supposed to.Now, to apply product, say by hand.... On the Meguiar's website there are a few applicators I saw:
Even Coat Applicator for waxes;
High Tech Applicator Pad this is more or less Meg's 'regular yellow applicator.' The description says you can use it for waxes but I wouldn't hesitate to use it for polishes as well. I've used it on trim dressing too.
Some person on here said they found #9 at Pep Boy's.... I haven't been able to buy my professional products through say Advanced or Autozone.... Meg's is your best bet.
When applying polish or wax by hand, you should move your hand in small circular motions, sort of mimicking what the machine polisher would do.
#17
06-01-2005, 11:31 PM
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Okay, so say I go buy everything I need to do a complete detail on the truck. I'll need to first start off with something like Meguiars #9, then a polish, then a wax, right? Is there certain types/brands of polishes/waxes that will go good with each other, or will prettyu much anything go. I don't want to defeat having polished by using the wrong wax, etc.
#18
06-01-2005, 11:31 PM
Whatever site you found that on 5.4 is incorrect in saying that #9 is non-abrasive. My hunch is that they meant to insert #7 there but, who will know?
#9 does contain a buffered diminishing abrasive that, like FL mentioned, is designed to break down as the product is worked. For this reason, #9's label specifically mentions to work the product until it is nearing a dried state. Also for that reason you should only work with it on small sections and further not let it totally dry to your paint.
#9 can, almost always, be had at Otter Zone or Paprika Boys if you have either available. Further, I've seen it at Kragen and also Advanced. It's a very common product that is readily accessible typically. #83 is another product that I've seen mentioned in this thread and, unfortunately, it's a bit tougher to come by but, as a tip, I'd go with that one last behind a couple of others that I can recommend if you need some guidance. I only say that because it's a bit tougher to work with on darker colors like your wedgewood blue. Just a personal opinion but, it's also from my experience with the product...but, I can say I have achieved big time results with it on some vehicles... I typically have to follow with another product to clean up the micromarring that I seem to get with darker colors though.
As for 3M stuff, they make some really good products but, I'm simply not that familar with them. I do have a few 3M bottles on my shelf but still don't completely understand their line... for that reason, I'm going to stick to something I know when recommending products for your work....
Terry towels have their place in a detailing aresonal in my opinion but, their place is a diminishing and dying breed. I like terry to 'cut the skin' of some products but, as a general rule of thumb, I HIGHLY recommend going with microfiber. Both MF applicators and towels are a great 'step up' from 100% cotton-terry in most cases but, again, I still have both as there are needs for higher cut applicators (terry) and also a more abrasive removal technique on occasion (terry towels).
MF is a market where you REALLY get what you pay for. I'd highly recommend checking out a few sites like pakshak.com and/or premiumautocare.com. While these towels and applicators are not going to solve your problem, they can be a part of your ongoing solution as there is less of a chance of introducing problems to your paint with this type of material in my opinion when used correctly and stored correctly.
Circular versus back and forth. A long since debated issue on all of the major detailing message boards... the jury is out. My technique is both and or all of the above.
As for finding the products, it's pretty simple actually... check out www.meguiars.com and go to their 'Dealer Locator'. If you're looking for any of the '#' products, you're looking for professional products and thus, be sure to check that box when you search. You may be suprised to find a paint and body shop in your area that carries a lot of the line. My motto is to buy local if at all possible where convienient. Fortunately for me, I have a distributor close by that carries, literally, the entire Pro Products (brand name) line as well as nearly all of the Meg's Professional line (& D-line too!).
While I understand your worries about an 'abrasive product', you must realize what your swirls really are...(besides a hassle). They are tiny scratches. They reflect and refract light so that they are visible. The only way to correct this occurance on a permanent basis is to remove them. To remove them, you have to remove a very thin layer of clear coat (clear paint) to 'smooth' the paint. Often times this is accomplished using mechanical means with abrasive products. While #9 has a slight degree of 'fillers' to conceal problems, it's main mechanism is a buffered abrasive (like I mentioned earlier). This diminishing abrasive is designed to remove a very thin layer of clear in order to make the paint flat again. In short, you're smoothing it out around the scratch (swirl). Think of it like a bulldozer filling in a ditch but, rather than pushing dirt into the ditch, he cuts the land around the ditch to the same level as the bottom of the ditch to make the landscape smooth. Same thing happens with an abrasive polish. It's a necessary evil to use but, if used correctly, it can yield incredible results.
Now, considering that we've still not seen any pictures of your paint, it's very difficult to say if #9 is going to do what I'm advertising. Some swirls, no matter the product, may not be totally removed so, I don't want you to think that there is a 'silver bullet' out there because there really isn't. Odds are that the #9, at a minimum, will help out in a big way but, you still may have things you see in the paint.
***CONTINUED***
#9 does contain a buffered diminishing abrasive that, like FL mentioned, is designed to break down as the product is worked. For this reason, #9's label specifically mentions to work the product until it is nearing a dried state. Also for that reason you should only work with it on small sections and further not let it totally dry to your paint.
#9 can, almost always, be had at Otter Zone or Paprika Boys if you have either available. Further, I've seen it at Kragen and also Advanced. It's a very common product that is readily accessible typically. #83 is another product that I've seen mentioned in this thread and, unfortunately, it's a bit tougher to come by but, as a tip, I'd go with that one last behind a couple of others that I can recommend if you need some guidance. I only say that because it's a bit tougher to work with on darker colors like your wedgewood blue. Just a personal opinion but, it's also from my experience with the product...but, I can say I have achieved big time results with it on some vehicles... I typically have to follow with another product to clean up the micromarring that I seem to get with darker colors though.
As for 3M stuff, they make some really good products but, I'm simply not that familar with them. I do have a few 3M bottles on my shelf but still don't completely understand their line... for that reason, I'm going to stick to something I know when recommending products for your work....
Terry towels have their place in a detailing aresonal in my opinion but, their place is a diminishing and dying breed. I like terry to 'cut the skin' of some products but, as a general rule of thumb, I HIGHLY recommend going with microfiber. Both MF applicators and towels are a great 'step up' from 100% cotton-terry in most cases but, again, I still have both as there are needs for higher cut applicators (terry) and also a more abrasive removal technique on occasion (terry towels).
MF is a market where you REALLY get what you pay for. I'd highly recommend checking out a few sites like pakshak.com and/or premiumautocare.com. While these towels and applicators are not going to solve your problem, they can be a part of your ongoing solution as there is less of a chance of introducing problems to your paint with this type of material in my opinion when used correctly and stored correctly.
Circular versus back and forth. A long since debated issue on all of the major detailing message boards... the jury is out. My technique is both and or all of the above.
As for finding the products, it's pretty simple actually... check out www.meguiars.com and go to their 'Dealer Locator'. If you're looking for any of the '#' products, you're looking for professional products and thus, be sure to check that box when you search. You may be suprised to find a paint and body shop in your area that carries a lot of the line. My motto is to buy local if at all possible where convienient. Fortunately for me, I have a distributor close by that carries, literally, the entire Pro Products (brand name) line as well as nearly all of the Meg's Professional line (& D-line too!).
While I understand your worries about an 'abrasive product', you must realize what your swirls really are...(besides a hassle). They are tiny scratches. They reflect and refract light so that they are visible. The only way to correct this occurance on a permanent basis is to remove them. To remove them, you have to remove a very thin layer of clear coat (clear paint) to 'smooth' the paint. Often times this is accomplished using mechanical means with abrasive products. While #9 has a slight degree of 'fillers' to conceal problems, it's main mechanism is a buffered abrasive (like I mentioned earlier). This diminishing abrasive is designed to remove a very thin layer of clear in order to make the paint flat again. In short, you're smoothing it out around the scratch (swirl). Think of it like a bulldozer filling in a ditch but, rather than pushing dirt into the ditch, he cuts the land around the ditch to the same level as the bottom of the ditch to make the landscape smooth. Same thing happens with an abrasive polish. It's a necessary evil to use but, if used correctly, it can yield incredible results.
Now, considering that we've still not seen any pictures of your paint, it's very difficult to say if #9 is going to do what I'm advertising. Some swirls, no matter the product, may not be totally removed so, I don't want you to think that there is a 'silver bullet' out there because there really isn't. Odds are that the #9, at a minimum, will help out in a big way but, you still may have things you see in the paint.
***CONTINUED***
#19
06-01-2005, 11:32 PM
For this reason, many manufacturers carry and make varying levels of abrasives in their products. Further, based on environmental conditions, some will dry faster or slower or be strictly for machine (to break down abrasives) or can be used by hand. #9 is a good, all-round product that can be used by hand or machine. I've used it with both with very high-end results.
ddellow brings a good point too. Detailing simply isn't a one-stop shop on getting stellar results. It really takes an understanding of what's going on with your paint and a general understanding of what it's going to take to remedy the situation. From there, learning what to do when and with what is important and making sure that you use the correct techniques when using what / when is vital.
The #1 rule of detailing: Use common sense.
For example, if you drop a towel or applicator on the garage floor, don't brush it off and keep going. Replace it! Wash it! The tiny amount of grit that you just picked up off the floor can spell disaster.... I could list a billion of these... just think about what caused the problems and think about ways to minimize them happening again. You're never going to totally prevent them over time but, you can minimize them.
RP
ddellow brings a good point too. Detailing simply isn't a one-stop shop on getting stellar results. It really takes an understanding of what's going on with your paint and a general understanding of what it's going to take to remedy the situation. From there, learning what to do when and with what is important and making sure that you use the correct techniques when using what / when is vital.
The #1 rule of detailing: Use common sense.
For example, if you drop a towel or applicator on the garage floor, don't brush it off and keep going. Replace it! Wash it! The tiny amount of grit that you just picked up off the floor can spell disaster.... I could list a billion of these... just think about what caused the problems and think about ways to minimize them happening again. You're never going to totally prevent them over time but, you can minimize them.
RP
#20
06-01-2005, 11:40 PM
Originally Posted by Brian 5.4
Okay, so say I go buy everything I need to do a complete detail on the truck. I'll need to first start off with something like Meguiars #9, then a polish, then a wax, right? Is there certain types/brands of polishes/waxes that will go good with each other, or will prettyu much anything go. I don't want to defeat having polished by using the wrong wax, etc.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think #9 is a polish. You can mix and match, it won't hurt. Use whatever products take a tingle to your preference.
#21
06-01-2005, 11:43 PM
Originally Posted by Brian 5.4
Okay, so say I go buy everything I need to do a complete detail on the truck. I'll need to first start off with something like Meguiars #9, then a polish, then a wax, right? Is there certain types/brands of polishes/waxes that will go good with each other, or will prettyu much anything go. I don't want to defeat having polished by using the wrong wax, etc.
Let's do this right start to finish so, let's add a couple of steps if you don't mind. While you can skip them, I find them to be extremely beneficial...
1. Wash. This is a critical step. Wash from top to bottom and utilize the two-bucket system at a minimum. The two bucket system uses one bucket for your wash solution and one bucket full of fresh water. Using a VERY nice, HIGH-QUALITY wash mitt or wash sponge that is CLEAN and FREE OF DEBRIS, dip it in the wash solution. Start at the top and wash a single panel. Come to your fresh water and wash out your mitt/sponge freeing it of the majority of the soap but, also the debris that you picked up when washing that panel.
Repeat all the way across the vehicle but, avoid TIRES AND WHEEL LIPS/WELLS. Do these ABSOLUTELY LAST and do not use the same mitt. Use a dedicated mitt for these areas. I even use a dedicated mitt for my 'two-tone' areas as they are low on my body panels and thus, are more prone to 'driving grit/grime'.
2. Clay. You can find a wealth of information on this on our site. We've talked about it a lot. Clay removes bonded surficial contamination that washing can't remove. Industrial fallout, rail dust, and other types of things can be removed with this step.
To determine if you need to clay, rub your clean/dry hand across your paint (hoods, roofs, and tonneaus tend to pick up the most stuff from my experience). Do you feel a 'rough' texture? If so, try clay. Follow the directions explicitly and then feel the surface again. Feel the difference? I bet you will.
3. Abrasive Polish. This is where the silver bullet may or may not exist. #9 will remove some of your problems but, may fall short on your quest for perfection. Follow the directions on the bottle to the 't'. Repeat applications if you wish.
My suggestion. Do your tailgate. Assess it in the sunlight and the pull back into the shade of a garage or similar. Did it help? Does it need more help? Repeat and see where you're going with it. Several applications of this product may or may not yield good results. Like I said in an earlier post, you may be too far gone...
4. Repeat #3 if needed. This is also step #5 - #8 but, for time sake, I won't type it out again.
9. Pure polish maybe. Maybe not needed as I've found that the polishing oils in #9 really help with pop but, you may elect to go with a pure polish like Meguiar's #7 or something similar. Again though, maybe not a necessity. Again, test it on a panel... I use my tailgate as my crash test dummy frequently. Apply and assess. Like it? See a difference? If you do see a difference and you like that difference, go for it on the vehicle. If not, forgo this step.
10. Protect. This is where wax comes in. A good synthetic like Zaino, NXT, Mothers SYN or similar is a good choice. Beyond those, there are several great carnauba or natural based waxes that are available. You really can't go wrong here with a 'reputable brand name'. The key is to apply a few coats (synthtics require dry times and such, follow directions!) and to apply it often.
Whew... I'm writing novels tonight...
RP
#22
06-01-2005, 11:44 PM
Originally Posted by Ford Lariat
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think #9 is a polish. You can mix and match, it won't hurt. Use whatever products take a tingle to your preference.
I shant correct you.
And she's right. You don't have to be brand loyal and follow step by step per a manufac's recomendations. The key is to have the right series of steps in there to achieve a goal.
For example, if you like Meguiar's Shampoo but hate their wax, don't worry! You can use Mothers, Zaino, or heck, even Rain Dance, if you wish.
RP
#23
06-01-2005, 11:48 PM
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Wow. Thanks guys. I'm overwhelmed with knowledge 
I have taken some pictures, but the swirls are so minute they don't show up in the photos. All you can see from the picture is a nice looking reflective paint. Go figure.
I plan on picking up some #9 and mothers FX tomorrow, and going to town. I'll let you know how it works out.
I have taken some pictures, but the swirls are so minute they don't show up in the photos. All you can see from the picture is a nice looking reflective paint. Go figure.
I plan on picking up some #9 and mothers FX tomorrow, and going to town. I'll let you know how it works out.
#24
06-01-2005, 11:52 PM
I really hope it works out for you Brian. #9, like I mentioned, will probably help but, it may fall short of correcting the problem to the fullest.
BTW, a hint for taking swirl shots... go to your local wally world or grocery store. Park in their parking lot immediately beneath a lot lamp and go to town. Those things are unforgiving. I've installed a few sets of flourescent tubes in my garage simply for detailing...
Keep running with us Brian...soon you'll have the guts to park that dark colored truck under a lot lamp.
When you do, let me know because I still cringe when I do it. LOL!
RP
BTW, a hint for taking swirl shots... go to your local wally world or grocery store. Park in their parking lot immediately beneath a lot lamp and go to town. Those things are unforgiving. I've installed a few sets of flourescent tubes in my garage simply for detailing...
Keep running with us Brian...soon you'll have the guts to park that dark colored truck under a lot lamp.
When you do, let me know because I still cringe when I do it. LOL!RP
#25
06-02-2005, 12:21 AM
#26
06-02-2005, 12:29 AM
Each case is going to be unique and thus, I try not to get into a 'canned answer' type of scenario.
While many of the steps are going to be the same, I like to make it a bit more personalized... maybe it's a waste of time but, I'd like to think I've helped out a couple of folks with a longer, more personalized, more in-depth, answer to their questions.
Boss does the same thing... it's really individualized in my opinon.
While many of the steps are going to be the same, I like to make it a bit more personalized... maybe it's a waste of time but, I'd like to think I've helped out a couple of folks with a longer, more personalized, more in-depth, answer to their questions.
Boss does the same thing... it's really individualized in my opinon.
#27
06-02-2005, 10:32 AM
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#28
06-02-2005, 11:04 AM
#29
06-02-2005, 01:45 PM
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I am fortunate enough to still be working part time(for now) since school let out and had some time to work on the truck today. I finally found some *9 and Mothers FX SynWax down at Manny, Moe, and Jacks' store (Pep boys) and got to work as soon as I got home. I used clean terry cloth towels to both put on and remove both products because the bottles suggested it. It appears that I have kicked some swirl mark butt. 
I am still unsure how much swirling I really removed, but from what I can tell, under direct sunlight, the holographic look over the paint is gone. I'll go park under a parking lot light once it gets dark to see what it looks like there. I'm keeping my fingers crossed! 
I am still unsure how much swirling I really removed, but from what I can tell, under direct sunlight, the holographic look over the paint is gone. I'll go park under a parking lot light once it gets dark to see what it looks like there. I'm keeping my fingers crossed!