?'s about the super chip
#1
12-16-1999, 09:17 AM
?'s about the super chip
i was wondering what kind of mpg increase i
can expect after installing a chip? premium
is 16-17% higher in price so i'd need the same increase in mpg to break even. the X factor is the size of the SEG on my face because of better performance.
Has anyone installed an adjustable fuel pressure regulator with or without a chip?
There's a site www.performanceunlimited.com/projectmpg where
they use a behemoth f350 dually crew cab 4x4
conversion vehicle & use bolt on mods, then
document the results. One of the things that interested me was an adjustable regulator. It seemed to be a very effective way to dial in
performance & mpg. i had a 93 explorer, but not suprisingly couldn't find one for it. now
i seen a universal efi regulator from paxton
in the summit racing catalog for a $143, which seems a little steep for a reg. another
thing that interested me about the f350 was this heat repelling cool tape they used to insulate the air intake ***'y. i tried that on the explorer & noticed a definite increase
in performance & the mpg went from a pathetic
12.3 in the city to an almost diesled vw bug-like 13.6! Also didn't have to use 93 octane anymore. i'm sorry for getting off subject there. one more question. if using
CAPS is yelling, whats an (!) used for?
can expect after installing a chip? premium
is 16-17% higher in price so i'd need the same increase in mpg to break even. the X factor is the size of the SEG on my face because of better performance.
Has anyone installed an adjustable fuel pressure regulator with or without a chip?
There's a site www.performanceunlimited.com/projectmpg where
they use a behemoth f350 dually crew cab 4x4
conversion vehicle & use bolt on mods, then
document the results. One of the things that interested me was an adjustable regulator. It seemed to be a very effective way to dial in
performance & mpg. i had a 93 explorer, but not suprisingly couldn't find one for it. now
i seen a universal efi regulator from paxton
in the summit racing catalog for a $143, which seems a little steep for a reg. another
thing that interested me about the f350 was this heat repelling cool tape they used to insulate the air intake ***'y. i tried that on the explorer & noticed a definite increase
in performance & the mpg went from a pathetic
12.3 in the city to an almost diesled vw bug-like 13.6! Also didn't have to use 93 octane anymore. i'm sorry for getting off subject there. one more question. if using
CAPS is yelling, whats an (!) used for?
#2
12-16-1999, 01:18 PM
Former Sponsor
Dear d reyes,
Welcome to F150online! And thanks for that link, it's a very interesting article on a 1988 F-350 with the older 460 gas engine and a speed-density system.
First, the only performance chip that can provide a mileage increase is the Superchip, and this is due to the fact that it uses more spark advance on part-throttle, where other chips tune only at WOT (wide-open throttle). Even so, we do not make any *guarantees* of better mileage, simply because so many factors are beyond our control, such as how you drive your vehicle, and your local fuel quality. In the link you cite, they used a Hypertech chip, and it cost them a reduction in gas mileage of 9.5%! That is something that would not happen with a Superchip; you'd get either the same or better gas mileage, assuming your driving conditions remain the same.
To give you a more direct answer, most F-150 V-8 owners using the Superchip have reported back here with results on average of 1.5 to 2.0 more mpg. However, if you drive with a heavy right foot, or do all city driving, you may not see *any* increase in gas mileage.
What you have to remember is that this is a *performance* chip, and not a gas mileage chip. No power gain comes free, and the way the Superchip makes most of it's additional power is by retuning the engine specifically to take advantage of premium gasoline.
For people who drive an average of 20,000 miles a year, if you don't get *any* improvement in gas mileage with the Superchip, your additional fuel costs annualy run about $150-$200, which isn't very much at all. Then when you figure in the fact that most people do see *some* improvement in gas mileage in the real world, then your increased fuel costs shrink even more.
Using an adjustable fuel pressure regulator will not get you any appreciable power gain in these late-model F-150's, and in fact will not get you a power gain on most *stock* vehicles. This is really only applicable if you've done mechanical modifications to the vehicle, like in that article you cited. In the link you cite, this is a heavily modified much older vehicle equipped with a speed-density system from 1988, and not a modern vehicle equipped with the mass airflow system.
By the way, please don't feel that I'm trying to "shoot down" this test article you cited, I think it's a *great* article about that particular vehicle, with some very interesting results! I just wanted to point out some differences between that heavily modified test vehicle, and the much more modern late-model F-150's that most people in this section are driving.
Thanks for pointing out the article, and if you'd like more detailed info on the Superchip, please feel free to give us a shout, our contact info is below.
Merry Christmas!
------------------
Mike Troyer
Performance Products, Inc.
National Distributor of Superchips
(540) 862-9515
Email: mtroyer@compuserve.com
Welcome to F150online! And thanks for that link, it's a very interesting article on a 1988 F-350 with the older 460 gas engine and a speed-density system.
First, the only performance chip that can provide a mileage increase is the Superchip, and this is due to the fact that it uses more spark advance on part-throttle, where other chips tune only at WOT (wide-open throttle). Even so, we do not make any *guarantees* of better mileage, simply because so many factors are beyond our control, such as how you drive your vehicle, and your local fuel quality. In the link you cite, they used a Hypertech chip, and it cost them a reduction in gas mileage of 9.5%! That is something that would not happen with a Superchip; you'd get either the same or better gas mileage, assuming your driving conditions remain the same.
To give you a more direct answer, most F-150 V-8 owners using the Superchip have reported back here with results on average of 1.5 to 2.0 more mpg. However, if you drive with a heavy right foot, or do all city driving, you may not see *any* increase in gas mileage.
What you have to remember is that this is a *performance* chip, and not a gas mileage chip. No power gain comes free, and the way the Superchip makes most of it's additional power is by retuning the engine specifically to take advantage of premium gasoline.
For people who drive an average of 20,000 miles a year, if you don't get *any* improvement in gas mileage with the Superchip, your additional fuel costs annualy run about $150-$200, which isn't very much at all. Then when you figure in the fact that most people do see *some* improvement in gas mileage in the real world, then your increased fuel costs shrink even more.
Using an adjustable fuel pressure regulator will not get you any appreciable power gain in these late-model F-150's, and in fact will not get you a power gain on most *stock* vehicles. This is really only applicable if you've done mechanical modifications to the vehicle, like in that article you cited. In the link you cite, this is a heavily modified much older vehicle equipped with a speed-density system from 1988, and not a modern vehicle equipped with the mass airflow system.
By the way, please don't feel that I'm trying to "shoot down" this test article you cited, I think it's a *great* article about that particular vehicle, with some very interesting results! I just wanted to point out some differences between that heavily modified test vehicle, and the much more modern late-model F-150's that most people in this section are driving.
Thanks for pointing out the article, and if you'd like more detailed info on the Superchip, please feel free to give us a shout, our contact info is below.
Merry Christmas!
------------------
Mike Troyer
Performance Products, Inc.
National Distributor of Superchips
(540) 862-9515
Email: mtroyer@compuserve.com
#3
12-16-1999, 04:05 PM
Mike T,
Thanks for the quick response. I guess the gist of my question is would ther be an appreciable improvement with an adjustable reg & you answered that for me. I went back over the results of the site & the things that stuck out for me were that the most significant increase in torque (10%) is when the adjustable reg was installed. Another thing was I wished they would have installed the regulator at 1st to see what was the optimal fuel pressure would be for each mod.
This would have shown, to me anyway, when an
adjustable reg is worth putting on. Mike, I'm
not sure if we have the same definition of heavily modified. I thought of it as upgrading to better heads, different cam & intake manifold. Replacing the entire exhaust system falls in there too. Other than that the only things they did to the vehicle were a tune up, 'cool tape' the intake, a chip, a thermostat, synthetic lubes & the regulator.
They installed an overdrive unit, but it didn't affect the output of the engine, just hwy mpg. I hope I remembered it all. I apologize for being so roundabout it, but I have another question. Is the reason an adjustable regulator won't improve the performance on a newer f150 because you have to do everything that was done on the project
vehicle, the f150 has a mass airflow sensor &
not a speed density sensor, the newer computers are more sophisticated & would compensate for a different fuel pressure anyway, or none of the above?
Thanks again Mike, I apologize for pestering you with this.
Thanks for the quick response. I guess the gist of my question is would ther be an appreciable improvement with an adjustable reg & you answered that for me. I went back over the results of the site & the things that stuck out for me were that the most significant increase in torque (10%) is when the adjustable reg was installed. Another thing was I wished they would have installed the regulator at 1st to see what was the optimal fuel pressure would be for each mod.
This would have shown, to me anyway, when an
adjustable reg is worth putting on. Mike, I'm
not sure if we have the same definition of heavily modified. I thought of it as upgrading to better heads, different cam & intake manifold. Replacing the entire exhaust system falls in there too. Other than that the only things they did to the vehicle were a tune up, 'cool tape' the intake, a chip, a thermostat, synthetic lubes & the regulator.
They installed an overdrive unit, but it didn't affect the output of the engine, just hwy mpg. I hope I remembered it all. I apologize for being so roundabout it, but I have another question. Is the reason an adjustable regulator won't improve the performance on a newer f150 because you have to do everything that was done on the project
vehicle, the f150 has a mass airflow sensor &
not a speed density sensor, the newer computers are more sophisticated & would compensate for a different fuel pressure anyway, or none of the above?
Thanks again Mike, I apologize for pestering you with this.
#4
12-17-1999, 04:18 PM
Former Sponsor
Dear d reyes,
Hey, you're not pestering me at all, no problem!
I agree with you, it would have been very nice if they had before & after numbers for the fuel pressures they used. My point about the mods is just that the way they have that vehicle configured, it's *far* from stock, as if you'll notice, they claimed in excess of 600 lbs./ft. of torque, which is *far* above the stock figure. I don't know if that torque number was a misprint, it seems to be according to the acceleration times they got at that vehicle weight. At any rate, the point being, on a stock vehicle, increasing fuel pressure won't get you a power gain as a loose general rule. It's not until your at the point where the engine is "starved" for fuel that you'll see appreciable increases in power just from installing an adjustable fuel pressure regulator. Now a lot of Mustang 5.0 guys and LT1 guys do that as one of their first mods, installing the adjustable FPR, in anticipation of doing further mods, and also sometimes because somebody told them it would add power. But the bottom line is that **unless the engine is not getting as much fuel as it can use** for whatever reason, increasing pressure to the injectors just makes it run richer, and then the O2 sensor(s) have to try to dial it back to a 14.7 ratio at cruise, and on and on.
So there are circumstances under which installing an FPR and increasing fuel pressure *can* add power, but it's generally when the engine is not getting as much fuel as it could burn for a given set of circumstances in the first place. Increasing fuel rail pressure also works the fuel injectors harder, decreasing their service life, so that's another reason not to, unless you really need more fuel.
You see, if you need to get more fuel into the engine, the "proper" way to do it is to use larger fuel injectors, and then program their pulse width accordingly. Using the FPR is what we call a "band-aid" approach, though it has, does, and can work just fine for a lot of situations. But we advise people who need to increase fuel supply to the engine *substantially* to do it with the proper injector size, as once you get to 80% of an injectors duty cycle or higher, you start shortening it's life, generally. So FPR's are OK if you need to get just a little bit more fuel into the engine on the cheap, but if you need to get a substantial increase in fuel supply into an engine, then you need to go with proper sized injectors.
The reason an adjustable FPR will not increase horsepower on a stock late-model F-150 is simply because it is not lacking fuel to begin with. As a matter of fact, at WOT (wide-open throttle), they are too rich for best horsepower with the factory programming!
Some of the quickest factory hot-rods (Buick Grand National) have used speed-density systems, so they can be made to work, though I don't care for them myself, because they're working off of manifold pressure (MAP sensor) instead of measuring airflow.
Let's say you take a stock late-model F-150. Then you add a Superchip, an Airaid FIPK kit, and a set of headers and cat-back exhaust. At that point on a V-8, you've increased power output by about 60-65 hp, which is getting close to the practical limit of the stock injectors, so beyond that point, you may well be able to pick up some power by increasing fuel pressure. However, I wouldn't do it that way, I'd do a custom program in the Superchip to conpensate, instead of forcing the injectors to work against higher fuel pressures. And then once you hit 80% or more duty cycle, increase injector size as needed.
For example, when we do a custom Superchip for an F-150 with a supercharger, the engineers at Superchips calculate the maximum hp level that can be supported by the current injector size, and if that isn't enough, they will advise the client as to exactly what size injector they need to use, and then program for that size accordingly.
Whew!
I hope that's covered it in a bit more detail,
------------------
Mike Troyer
Performance Products, Inc.
National Distributor of Superchips
(540) 862-9515
Email: mtroyer@compuserve.com
[This message has been edited by Superchips_Distributor (edited 12-17-1999).]
Hey, you're not pestering me at all, no problem!
I agree with you, it would have been very nice if they had before & after numbers for the fuel pressures they used. My point about the mods is just that the way they have that vehicle configured, it's *far* from stock, as if you'll notice, they claimed in excess of 600 lbs./ft. of torque, which is *far* above the stock figure. I don't know if that torque number was a misprint, it seems to be according to the acceleration times they got at that vehicle weight. At any rate, the point being, on a stock vehicle, increasing fuel pressure won't get you a power gain as a loose general rule. It's not until your at the point where the engine is "starved" for fuel that you'll see appreciable increases in power just from installing an adjustable fuel pressure regulator. Now a lot of Mustang 5.0 guys and LT1 guys do that as one of their first mods, installing the adjustable FPR, in anticipation of doing further mods, and also sometimes because somebody told them it would add power. But the bottom line is that **unless the engine is not getting as much fuel as it can use** for whatever reason, increasing pressure to the injectors just makes it run richer, and then the O2 sensor(s) have to try to dial it back to a 14.7 ratio at cruise, and on and on.
So there are circumstances under which installing an FPR and increasing fuel pressure *can* add power, but it's generally when the engine is not getting as much fuel as it could burn for a given set of circumstances in the first place. Increasing fuel rail pressure also works the fuel injectors harder, decreasing their service life, so that's another reason not to, unless you really need more fuel.
You see, if you need to get more fuel into the engine, the "proper" way to do it is to use larger fuel injectors, and then program their pulse width accordingly. Using the FPR is what we call a "band-aid" approach, though it has, does, and can work just fine for a lot of situations. But we advise people who need to increase fuel supply to the engine *substantially* to do it with the proper injector size, as once you get to 80% of an injectors duty cycle or higher, you start shortening it's life, generally. So FPR's are OK if you need to get just a little bit more fuel into the engine on the cheap, but if you need to get a substantial increase in fuel supply into an engine, then you need to go with proper sized injectors.
The reason an adjustable FPR will not increase horsepower on a stock late-model F-150 is simply because it is not lacking fuel to begin with. As a matter of fact, at WOT (wide-open throttle), they are too rich for best horsepower with the factory programming!
Some of the quickest factory hot-rods (Buick Grand National) have used speed-density systems, so they can be made to work, though I don't care for them myself, because they're working off of manifold pressure (MAP sensor) instead of measuring airflow.
Let's say you take a stock late-model F-150. Then you add a Superchip, an Airaid FIPK kit, and a set of headers and cat-back exhaust. At that point on a V-8, you've increased power output by about 60-65 hp, which is getting close to the practical limit of the stock injectors, so beyond that point, you may well be able to pick up some power by increasing fuel pressure. However, I wouldn't do it that way, I'd do a custom program in the Superchip to conpensate, instead of forcing the injectors to work against higher fuel pressures. And then once you hit 80% or more duty cycle, increase injector size as needed.
For example, when we do a custom Superchip for an F-150 with a supercharger, the engineers at Superchips calculate the maximum hp level that can be supported by the current injector size, and if that isn't enough, they will advise the client as to exactly what size injector they need to use, and then program for that size accordingly.
Whew!
I hope that's covered it in a bit more detail,
------------------
Mike Troyer
Performance Products, Inc.
National Distributor of Superchips
(540) 862-9515
Email: mtroyer@compuserve.com
[This message has been edited by Superchips_Distributor (edited 12-17-1999).]
#5
12-17-1999, 09:19 PM
Holy mackeral Mike, thats a heck of an answer. I feel bad about it, but you've raised another question. On the project truck
they lowered the fuel pressure from 43 to 39
psi & got an increase in performance & mileage. Then they replaced the exhaust & removed the air silencer & tweaked the pressure up to 41 psi for max performance.
I guess I'm dense but are you saying the right way to do it would be to adjust the pulse width of the injectors? Does the superchip do this? Based on what I've read here, I'm absolutely sold on the superchip & plan on getting one. I'm just trying to absorb as much info as possible about maximizing the performance of my new truck without compromising reliabilty & your responses are greatly appreciated.
Thanks again Mike, Have a Merry Christmas &
A Happy New Year!!!
they lowered the fuel pressure from 43 to 39
psi & got an increase in performance & mileage. Then they replaced the exhaust & removed the air silencer & tweaked the pressure up to 41 psi for max performance.
I guess I'm dense but are you saying the right way to do it would be to adjust the pulse width of the injectors? Does the superchip do this? Based on what I've read here, I'm absolutely sold on the superchip & plan on getting one. I'm just trying to absorb as much info as possible about maximizing the performance of my new truck without compromising reliabilty & your responses are greatly appreciated.
Thanks again Mike, Have a Merry Christmas &
A Happy New Year!!!
#7
12-18-1999, 11:16 PM
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Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Tomball, TX USA
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I have a 97 f150 with the v6 and 5 speed.
I installed my chip around 6 months ago and have been very pleased with it. Even with the manual tranny there is a solid performance increase. The engine runs much smoother and sounds less like a bb in a boxcar. Overall torque is improved, most noticeable in fourth gear which used to feel like a second overdrive. As for mileage, my truck has 3.55 gearing, an exhaust I love to hear, and a heavy boot attached to the gas pedal. I went from 13mpg to 15 mpg. But the increase in gas price eats up the improved mileage. I didnt buy the chip for improved mileage so I am happy the increase in mileage pays for the gas price diff.
I installed my chip around 6 months ago and have been very pleased with it. Even with the manual tranny there is a solid performance increase. The engine runs much smoother and sounds less like a bb in a boxcar. Overall torque is improved, most noticeable in fourth gear which used to feel like a second overdrive. As for mileage, my truck has 3.55 gearing, an exhaust I love to hear, and a heavy boot attached to the gas pedal. I went from 13mpg to 15 mpg. But the increase in gas price eats up the improved mileage. I didnt buy the chip for improved mileage so I am happy the increase in mileage pays for the gas price diff.
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#8
12-19-1999, 07:55 PM
I wish I would have known about superchips back when I bought my EB Expy. in 1996. My 36 months is now up although I just turned 30K. Most of the miles are towing my 31'Prowler travel trailor with slideout. I turned many a heads having one of the first Expy's out pulling such a large trailor.My GCVR was around 13,500; max. for this unit with the 5.4L. I consulted Ford,[thru Dr.?] about the combination before ordering both. My average towing mileage was 5mpg in high but would increase to 8-9mpg when I could keep it in OD. I couldn't do this often unless very level, behind a large tractor/trailor or a tail wind. I only had the original 235HP. My worst mileage was going up the pass to Yellowstone this past Summer, 1mpg. Most big grades 2mpg. The overhead trip computers, I found to be very accurate. My transmission now seems to surge or search while in 3rd or OD. Everytime you leave off the gas, then press it again the engine surges about 200rpms every time,even if it doesn't shift to another gear. My dealer has checked this problem many times, and has researched all TSB's coming up with nothing. I now think I should have bought a superchip to deal with the shifting and also I may have been able to keep it in OD more and would have saved enough in gas in 3years to pay for the chip. FYI my computer code is GZA3. I wish I heard of SuperchipDealer sooner! P.S. I was able to keep OD more with an air deflector mounted to my roof rack.
#9
12-20-1999, 03:44 PM
Former Sponsor
Dear d reyes,
The answer to your question is yes! The fuel curves (via pulse width) are optimized in the Superchip. You see, the fuel curves have to be completely re-written, to compensate for the different burn rate of the higher octane fuel, so this is automatically a part of what the Superchips program does.
------------------
Mike Troyer
Performance Products, Inc.
National Distributor of Superchips
(540) 862-9515
Email: mtroyer@compuserve.com
The answer to your question is yes!
The fuel curves (via pulse width) are optimized in the Superchip. You see, the fuel curves have to be completely re-written, to compensate for the different burn rate of the higher octane fuel, so this is automatically a part of what the Superchips program does.------------------
Mike Troyer
Performance Products, Inc.
National Distributor of Superchips
(540) 862-9515
Email: mtroyer@compuserve.com
#10
12-20-1999, 03:47 PM
Former Sponsor
Dear MAR,
Yes, we have had your GZA3 program done for quite some time now, and I have dozens of happy Expedition owners using the Superchip for that code. Please feel free to give me a shout if you'd like to place your order, my email and phone info are just below for your convenience. We also have an online ordering form in a banner ad in rotation at the top of this and other message board pages as well, so you can order that way too, if you like.
Merry Christmas,
------------------
Mike Troyer
Performance Products, Inc.
National Distributor of Superchips
(540) 862-9515
Email: mtroyer@compuserve.com
Yes, we have had your GZA3 program done for quite some time now, and I have dozens of happy Expedition owners using the Superchip for that code. Please feel free to give me a shout if you'd like to place your order, my email and phone info are just below for your convenience. We also have an online ordering form in a banner ad in rotation at the top of this and other message board pages as well, so you can order that way too, if you like.
Merry Christmas,
------------------
Mike Troyer
Performance Products, Inc.
National Distributor of Superchips
(540) 862-9515
Email: mtroyer@compuserve.com