Question for Mike Troyer
#1
07-23-2004, 06:10 PM
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: So. California
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Question for Mike Troyer
Hi Mike:
Just got off the phone with Anita and ordered the E-mail File Update Pkg. for my 9100 in preparation for possible additional mods. As you know, I'm thrilled with my custom tunes and will soon post an update to my original "Troyer 9100 Wow!" thread (now that I've put 91 Octane into my tank).
I have a question for you that deals with both the 9100 and a possible upgrade to a 4.10 rear:
I've done my homework on this to the extent that I know that due to my larger diameter tires I am currently turning approx. 100 RPM slower than stock at 70 MPH in overdrive (.71).
If I upgrade from my current 3.55 to a 3.73 I will bring the RPM's (in the same scenario) back to exact stock numbers. This makes sense as the 2001 Expy with the 255/70-16's had a 3.55 option and with the 265/70-17's the 3.73 ratio and both run at the same RPM's. (My tires are the same diameter as the 17's).
If I upgrade from my current 3.55 to a 4.10 with my current set up I will be turning exactly 200 RPM faster then factory stock at 70 MPH. (BTW, I used the www.drivetraindirect.com gear calculator to come up with these figures.)
In your experience, what are the advantages or disadvantages of upgrading to either the 3.73 or 4.10 relating to off-the-line acceleration, top-end, gas mileage and engine life? The 9100 has already significantly improved my acceleration and shifting but I'm hoping for a little more "oomph" (and wheel spin) off-the-line. Also, if I do the gear change, can I still run one of custom tunes you did or should I return it to "stock" until you can update the 9100 programs for me? Thanks, Mike!
DeeAnna
P.S. Anyone else out there gone from 3.55's to 4.10's?
Just got off the phone with Anita and ordered the E-mail File Update Pkg. for my 9100 in preparation for possible additional mods. As you know, I'm thrilled with my custom tunes and will soon post an update to my original "Troyer 9100 Wow!" thread (now that I've put 91 Octane into my tank).
I have a question for you that deals with both the 9100 and a possible upgrade to a 4.10 rear:I've done my homework on this to the extent that I know that due to my larger diameter tires I am currently turning approx. 100 RPM slower than stock at 70 MPH in overdrive (.71).
If I upgrade from my current 3.55 to a 3.73 I will bring the RPM's (in the same scenario) back to exact stock numbers. This makes sense as the 2001 Expy with the 255/70-16's had a 3.55 option and with the 265/70-17's the 3.73 ratio and both run at the same RPM's. (My tires are the same diameter as the 17's).
If I upgrade from my current 3.55 to a 4.10 with my current set up I will be turning exactly 200 RPM faster then factory stock at 70 MPH. (BTW, I used the www.drivetraindirect.com gear calculator to come up with these figures.)
In your experience, what are the advantages or disadvantages of upgrading to either the 3.73 or 4.10 relating to off-the-line acceleration, top-end, gas mileage and engine life? The 9100 has already significantly improved my acceleration and shifting but I'm hoping for a little more "oomph" (and wheel spin) off-the-line. Also, if I do the gear change, can I still run one of custom tunes you did or should I return it to "stock" until you can update the 9100 programs for me? Thanks, Mike!DeeAnna
P.S. Anyone else out there gone from 3.55's to 4.10's?
Last edited by 1miamifan; 07-24-2004 at 04:16 AM.
#2
07-23-2004, 10:46 PM
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: irwin,pa
Posts: 262
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
#3
07-24-2004, 01:56 PM
Former Sponsor
Hi DeeAnna,
First - I am a BIG fan of going to 4.10 gears, as that is the best overall ratio on these vehicles when running stock height tires, to tires that are not more than 1" taller than stock. You will not only improve acceleration, but you will also actually be able to hit a higher top speed, due to the way these trucks are set up the 4.10's will allow the engine to turn enough rpms in Overdrive to hit a higher top speed - just the opposite of what normally happens in a car if you do this.
I don't like changing from 3.55 to 3.73, as that is only a 5% change - so the results are generally not worth the cost, especially compared to the 4.10s which cost the same. I do gear ratio changes of such small differential like that (3.55 to 3.73) only when configuring a vehicle for a *racing* consideration - I.E., how many rpms does the vehicle need to be turning in 3rd gear at the end of the 1/4 mile for a given tire size, for example - or how many rpms do I want the motor turning at say, 130 mph in Overdrive, etc. - that kind of stuff.
When I change gears to improve performance in one of these trucks for the street, with either the stock tire size or up to 1" taller, I go with 4.10's. Anything less isn't going to yield enough difference to be worth it.
Turning only 200 rpms more at 70 mph is not enough to even consider - nor do I always agree with using that method to calculate the difference, by the way, as we've seen in many cases a number of the Internet "engines" for those conversions can be off (yours may be fine, I don't know).
What I do is to take the *percentage* of difference between the 2 gear ratios, and then apply that percentage to the number of rpms the motor is turning for any speed in any gear. For example, 4.10's are a 15.5% change (in round numbers) over 3.55's (4.10-3.55/3.55=15.49%), so you take whatever rpms the vehicle is turning in a given gear at a given speed right now with the 3.55's, and multiply that by 115.5% (100% + the 15.5% difference in gear ratios from 3.55 to 4.10 = 115.5%).
Sooo..........if you're currently turning say, 2000 rpm in Overdrive @ 70 mph, then with the 4.10's you'd be turning 2310 rpm - only 310 rpm more, and the difference in performance will be *more* than worth it.
We would need to change your tuning to compensate for that - not just to recalibrate the speedometer, but we would also need to completely re-do your part-throttle upshift, downshift, TQ lock & unlock schedules, as well as the mph side of the WOT upshift points. And of course, we can do that for you, no problem - I'm glad you picked up the Micro Tuner email update kit, that will make it so much easier for you to get changes made for things like gear ratios, shift points, and anything else - wise choice!
Don't worry about shortening the service life of your engine or anything else by going to 4.10's - it's not enough of a difference to alter the normal 175K+ mile engine life expectancy when using Mobil 1 synthetic engine oil in a weight of 10W-30 (not 5W-30 or 5W-20) & changing it every 3K miles.
Last - You'll want to coordinate the timing of this with us so that you get your gears in and have your new custom tuning from us to compensate everything for that gear ratio change at the same time - generally speaking, you'll want to allow about a week from the time we get the new CPW's back from you until you'll have the new tunes for the gears emailed to you, just as a rough guideline.
In short - I think the 4.10's are an *excellent* idea for what you want to accomplish, DeeAnna!
First - I am a BIG fan of going to 4.10 gears, as that is the best overall ratio on these vehicles when running stock height tires, to tires that are not more than 1" taller than stock. You will not only improve acceleration, but you will also actually be able to hit a higher top speed, due to the way these trucks are set up the 4.10's will allow the engine to turn enough rpms in Overdrive to hit a higher top speed - just the opposite of what normally happens in a car if you do this.
I don't like changing from 3.55 to 3.73, as that is only a 5% change - so the results are generally not worth the cost, especially compared to the 4.10s which cost the same. I do gear ratio changes of such small differential like that (3.55 to 3.73) only when configuring a vehicle for a *racing* consideration - I.E., how many rpms does the vehicle need to be turning in 3rd gear at the end of the 1/4 mile for a given tire size, for example - or how many rpms do I want the motor turning at say, 130 mph in Overdrive, etc. - that kind of stuff.
When I change gears to improve performance in one of these trucks for the street, with either the stock tire size or up to 1" taller, I go with 4.10's. Anything less isn't going to yield enough difference to be worth it.
Turning only 200 rpms more at 70 mph is not enough to even consider - nor do I always agree with using that method to calculate the difference, by the way, as we've seen in many cases a number of the Internet "engines" for those conversions can be off (yours may be fine, I don't know).
What I do is to take the *percentage* of difference between the 2 gear ratios, and then apply that percentage to the number of rpms the motor is turning for any speed in any gear. For example, 4.10's are a 15.5% change (in round numbers) over 3.55's (4.10-3.55/3.55=15.49%), so you take whatever rpms the vehicle is turning in a given gear at a given speed right now with the 3.55's, and multiply that by 115.5% (100% + the 15.5% difference in gear ratios from 3.55 to 4.10 = 115.5%).
Sooo..........if you're currently turning say, 2000 rpm in Overdrive @ 70 mph, then with the 4.10's you'd be turning 2310 rpm - only 310 rpm more, and the difference in performance will be *more* than worth it.
We would need to change your tuning to compensate for that - not just to recalibrate the speedometer, but we would also need to completely re-do your part-throttle upshift, downshift, TQ lock & unlock schedules, as well as the mph side of the WOT upshift points. And of course, we can do that for you, no problem - I'm glad you picked up the Micro Tuner email update kit, that will make it so much easier for you to get changes made for things like gear ratios, shift points, and anything else - wise choice!
Don't worry about shortening the service life of your engine or anything else by going to 4.10's - it's not enough of a difference to alter the normal 175K+ mile engine life expectancy when using Mobil 1 synthetic engine oil in a weight of 10W-30 (not 5W-30 or 5W-20) & changing it every 3K miles.
Last - You'll want to coordinate the timing of this with us so that you get your gears in and have your new custom tuning from us to compensate everything for that gear ratio change at the same time - generally speaking, you'll want to allow about a week from the time we get the new CPW's back from you until you'll have the new tunes for the gears emailed to you, just as a rough guideline.
In short - I think the 4.10's are an *excellent* idea for what you want to accomplish, DeeAnna!
#4
07-24-2004, 02:27 PM
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: So. California
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for all that, Mike! Interesting that a 4.10 could actually raise top speed. So the effect on gas mileage would be minimal? Also, my tires are 1.5" larger than stock, so is 4.10 still okay? Thanks!
DeeAnna
P.S. Have you looked into my custom tunes (the 91 Octane's) regarding the e-mail I sent to you and Anita you earlier this week?)
DeeAnna
P.S. Have you looked into my custom tunes (the 91 Octane's) regarding the e-mail I sent to you and Anita you earlier this week?)
Last edited by 1miamifan; 07-24-2004 at 02:34 PM.
#5
07-24-2004, 03:54 PM
Former Sponsor
Hi DeeAnna,
Yes, we have discussed it, and I have already reviewed each of the tunes themselves - they're fine and all the same with regard to the idle - nothing with regard to the idle has been changed in any of your tunes, we don't do that unless there is a mechanical mod (like underdrive pulleys, for example) that actually requires it, generally speaking.
I know exactly what you're referring to in that email, and most likely that is just a simple flashing issue that we'll take care of via email update now that you have the email update capability!
It should be just a few days for me to get those changes to you via email!
Yes, I think the 4.10's will still be fine even with 1.5" taller tires - you could go with a tad more gear, say, 4.30's if you like, but I'd stick to 4.10's unless all-out ET's at the drag strip are your first priority - that way your mpg won't suffer much, if at all, and the performance will still be better.
Talk to you soon!
Yes, we have discussed it, and I have already reviewed each of the tunes themselves - they're fine and all the same with regard to the idle - nothing with regard to the idle has been changed in any of your tunes, we don't do that unless there is a mechanical mod (like underdrive pulleys, for example) that actually requires it, generally speaking.
I know exactly what you're referring to in that email, and most likely that is just a simple flashing issue that we'll take care of via email update now that you have the email update capability!
It should be just a few days for me to get those changes to you via email!
Yes, I think the 4.10's will still be fine even with 1.5" taller tires - you could go with a tad more gear, say, 4.30's if you like, but I'd stick to 4.10's unless all-out ET's at the drag strip are your first priority - that way your mpg won't suffer much, if at all, and the performance will still be better.
Talk to you soon!
#6
07-25-2004, 02:07 PM
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: So. California
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mike, thank you so much again!
I really do appreciate the time you take to answer questions in these forums. Your commitment to customer service is so refreshing, especially in the automotive technology business. There's alot of good mechanics and performance shops, but only a select few who have the innate ability to express their knowledge in layman's terms. It's the same in the medical field in which I work: A "good" doctor has the medical knowledge, a "great" doctor has this knowledge, can properly apply it and will clearly express it to their patients.
With that said, I have a feeling that if someone in the forums wanted to bolt a 747 engine to their truck, you could tell them what gears to run and then do a 9100 Custom Tune for it!
Given your replys, I'm thinking the 4.10 gear is now the way to go. I'll be making a few calls this week and determine where to have the work done and when I can do it. Anita said my E-mail Update Pkg. will ship out Monday and I should have it by Thursday. I'm glad you knew what I was talking about in my e-mail and can send me that "flash" update. BTW, what exactly does "flash" mean? Also, assuming I can get the 4.10 installed this week, which of my custom tunes should I use until you can get me the updated programs? I now have close to a full tank of 91 octane and am running the Max. Perf./No-Tow. Will it be "safer" to drop back to stock tune or leave it where it's at assuming there's a lag-time between getting the 4.10 and the updated programs for it? Thanks again!
DeeAnna
A little aside: Thanks to OpenClassPro for your earlier post. Now I finally understand the info you gave me!
Last edited by 1miamifan; 07-25-2004 at 02:15 PM.
#7
07-27-2004, 03:26 PM
Former Sponsor
Hi DeeAnna,
Thanks very much for your kind words, they're greatly appreciated - I only hope we can actually live up to them.
WRT all the rest, by now we've had a chance to go over that by phone, so I won't bother to repeat it all here. Congratulations on your choice of 4.10's, and your new tunes will already have them compensated for, just as we discussed.
BTW, just as an aside & if you are so inclined, we'd *love* to see some pictures of your Expy if you have any in any kind of digital format, perhaps. From your signature line it sounds beautifully done, and we'd love to include it in our rotating pics on our web site at TroyerPerformance.com (with your permission). Truth be told, we really like seeing (and want to encourage) more ladies modify their vehicles as you are, especially given the fact that females actually buy slightly more than half of all new non-fleet vehicles sold in America. Just a thought................
Keep up the great work,
Thanks very much for your kind words, they're greatly appreciated - I only hope we can actually live up to them.
WRT all the rest, by now we've had a chance to go over that by phone, so I won't bother to repeat it all here. Congratulations on your choice of 4.10's, and your new tunes will already have them compensated for, just as we discussed.
BTW, just as an aside & if you are so inclined, we'd *love* to see some pictures of your Expy if you have any in any kind of digital format, perhaps. From your signature line it sounds beautifully done, and we'd love to include it in our rotating pics on our web site at TroyerPerformance.com (with your permission). Truth be told, we really like seeing (and want to encourage) more ladies modify their vehicles as you are, especially given the fact that females actually buy slightly more than half of all new non-fleet vehicles sold in America. Just a thought................
Keep up the great work,
Trending Topics
#8
07-27-2004, 11:19 PM
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: So. California
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Mike:
According to everyone in the forums and through my own personal experience, both you and your company have no problem living up to my "kind words". It seems you do it everyday!
I truly appreciate your insight and willingness to share your experience with both myself and others that may benefit from it.
I'll be having 4.10 Superior brand rear gears installed on Friday. The shop that's doing it, Earl's, was recommended to me by my best friend's husband. He has an '03 Lightning and he and many of his CHP buddies take their cars there. Earl's specializes in fast Fords. The owner's have 9 and 10 second (1/4 mile) Cobras!
Thursday night I'll set my tune back to "stock" so to be able to download the new custom tunes you're doing for me (adjusting for the 4.10 gear) using the 9100 E-mail Update Package. I'll then be ready to enter the new custom tune when I pick up my car with the 4.10 on Friday!
As for the pictures of my Expediton, I'd be thrilled if you thought it was nice enough to put on your website! I'll try to get some digitals and send them to you in the next few weeks. BTW, in the L.A. area, it seems like better then half the SUV's are driven by women. But afterall, this is LALA Land (stars, cars, etc.)!
Thanks again for everything,
DeeAnna
According to everyone in the forums and through my own personal experience, both you and your company have no problem living up to my "kind words". It seems you do it everyday!
I truly appreciate your insight and willingness to share your experience with both myself and others that may benefit from it.
I'll be having 4.10 Superior brand rear gears installed on Friday. The shop that's doing it, Earl's, was recommended to me by my best friend's husband. He has an '03 Lightning and he and many of his CHP buddies take their cars there. Earl's specializes in fast Fords. The owner's have 9 and 10 second (1/4 mile) Cobras!
Thursday night I'll set my tune back to "stock" so to be able to download the new custom tunes you're doing for me (adjusting for the 4.10 gear) using the 9100 E-mail Update Package. I'll then be ready to enter the new custom tune when I pick up my car with the 4.10 on Friday!
As for the pictures of my Expediton, I'd be thrilled if you thought it was nice enough to put on your website! I'll try to get some digitals and send them to you in the next few weeks. BTW, in the L.A. area, it seems like better then half the SUV's are driven by women. But afterall, this is LALA Land (stars, cars, etc.)!
Thanks again for everything,
DeeAnna
#9
07-30-2004, 07:17 PM
Former Sponsor
Hi DeeAnna,
You're more than welcome............
BTW, when I was going over your original CPW's from when we first did your tuning, I noticed that you still have the stock factory air intake on there - well, you know how we were talking about how you wanted to get that Expy launching harder (spinning the tires) off the line, etc...................... the 4.10's will certainly help, but what I would also suggest (whenever you can do this "comfortably") at some point is to get a good intake kit on there too. That not only adds peak HP at higher rpms, but also helps the initial launch and in the mid-range, too. The stock factory air intake tract doesn't breathe well - certainly not enough to really take advantage of our tuning and those 4.10's on board. So just s suggestion, but when you can I'd give thought to getting the Air Force One intake on there (which is a beautiful piece made of mirror-polished T304 Stainless Steel in aircraft grade). Figure you'll pick up an easy 15-18 HP and better performance everywhere - off the line, mid-range and higher rpms, too - you can see all the details about it on our web site at www.TroyerPerformance.com.
Right now, you already have an exhaust mod, and good custom tuning, along with a nice set of 4.10's going in - if you still want more performance after that, next thing to do in terms of the next best "bang for the buck" would be to get the air intake tract optimized using the AF1. Not trying to play salesman, just a suggestion in thinking about how you want to spin the tires on launch...............
Good luck with the gear install, sounds like you're using quality parts & a great installer, so that should work out well - your new tuning is already done, set up for the 4.10's and has already been emailed to you.
Have fun!
You're more than welcome............
BTW, when I was going over your original CPW's from when we first did your tuning, I noticed that you still have the stock factory air intake on there - well, you know how we were talking about how you wanted to get that Expy launching harder (spinning the tires) off the line, etc...................... the 4.10's will certainly help, but what I would also suggest (whenever you can do this "comfortably") at some point is to get a good intake kit on there too. That not only adds peak HP at higher rpms, but also helps the initial launch and in the mid-range, too. The stock factory air intake tract doesn't breathe well - certainly not enough to really take advantage of our tuning and those 4.10's on board. So just s suggestion, but when you can I'd give thought to getting the Air Force One intake on there (which is a beautiful piece made of mirror-polished T304 Stainless Steel in aircraft grade). Figure you'll pick up an easy 15-18 HP and better performance everywhere - off the line, mid-range and higher rpms, too - you can see all the details about it on our web site at www.TroyerPerformance.com.
Right now, you already have an exhaust mod, and good custom tuning, along with a nice set of 4.10's going in - if you still want more performance after that, next thing to do in terms of the next best "bang for the buck" would be to get the air intake tract optimized using the AF1. Not trying to play salesman, just a suggestion in thinking about how you want to spin the tires on launch...............
Good luck with the gear install, sounds like you're using quality parts & a great installer, so that should work out well - your new tuning is already done, set up for the 4.10's and has already been emailed to you.
Have fun!
#10
07-30-2004, 08:33 PM
4:10's for towing
Mike, I have been reading your comments. Would you apply the 4:10's to towing as well? I have a 2000 Expedition with 5.4. Have a Dialo chip in it now (thinking of switching to yours) that is the only mod I have. Also I live in Phoenix, AZ underhood temp's are critical. With after market air intakes that do not block under hood air is a big concern. What comments on that? Thanks Lew
#11
08-02-2004, 03:17 AM
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: So. California
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Mike:
The 4.10 rear is in and so are the new custom tunes you e-mailed me. The download from my computer into the 9100, despite my initial fears, was actually as easy as you and Anita promised!
The gears went in Friday and I programmed in the updated 91 Performance/Tow Tune before leaving the shop. I had set it back to the "stock" program Thursday after having checked all 3 new tunes that I had downloaded to make sure they weren't somehow corrupted (via e-mail). Drove to the shop for the gear install on Friday morning and I was soooo missing my performance tune already! You really do notice it when you go back to "stock".
Well, today I did some drivng. I love the 4.10's and the updated tune! I didn't set the maximum performance tune since I'm supposed to "break-in" the new gears for 500 miles, ie. no spinning tires, WOT starts, etc.
I'll continue this post tomorrow as it's late and I just wanted to get back with you ASAP!
DeeAnna
The 4.10 rear is in and so are the new custom tunes you e-mailed me. The download from my computer into the 9100, despite my initial fears, was actually as easy as you and Anita promised!
The gears went in Friday and I programmed in the updated 91 Performance/Tow Tune before leaving the shop. I had set it back to the "stock" program Thursday after having checked all 3 new tunes that I had downloaded to make sure they weren't somehow corrupted (via e-mail). Drove to the shop for the gear install on Friday morning and I was soooo missing my performance tune already! You really do notice it when you go back to "stock".
Well, today I did some drivng. I love the 4.10's and the updated tune! I didn't set the maximum performance tune since I'm supposed to "break-in" the new gears for 500 miles, ie. no spinning tires, WOT starts, etc.
I'll continue this post tomorrow as it's late and I just wanted to get back with you ASAP!
DeeAnna