9100 ? for mike & no cat ? for anyone else
#1
08-10-2004, 06:11 PM
9100 ? for mike & no cat ? for anyone else
Ok here is my first question...if i get rid of my cats and put a straight piece of pipe in instead, will it screw up my computer??
and my next question...if i get the 9100, can you make a program for no cats so that the computer will not be screwed up and so that i still get max power, millage, and towing? can you also do the same tunes with the 6600?
i dont want cats on my truck, they are ghey...but i am gonna weld flanges on to the cats and my piping so that when smogging comes around i can just buy O rings for a couple bucks and re bolt the cats back up and put on stock tune. i was also gonna weld the cat heat shields on to the straight pipe to give the appearance that cats are there. haha. i just dont want to screw up my truck cause i heard that OBDII is a pain to do anything to.
thanx in advance
and my next question...if i get the 9100, can you make a program for no cats so that the computer will not be screwed up and so that i still get max power, millage, and towing? can you also do the same tunes with the 6600?
i dont want cats on my truck, they are ghey...but i am gonna weld flanges on to the cats and my piping so that when smogging comes around i can just buy O rings for a couple bucks and re bolt the cats back up and put on stock tune. i was also gonna weld the cat heat shields on to the straight pipe to give the appearance that cats are there. haha. i just dont want to screw up my truck cause i heard that OBDII is a pain to do anything to.
thanx in advance
Last edited by Bull63; 08-10-2004 at 06:38 PM.
#2
08-10-2004, 08:17 PM
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08-11-2004, 02:30 PM
#5
08-12-2004, 03:35 PM
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Hi Bull63,
Don't take this response personally, OK?
I say that up front simply because this is one of my "pet peeves" as a tuner & F-series performance specialty company, so I'm going to be perhaps a bit "blunt" in my response - so keep in mind that this isn't "aimed" at you specifically, but instead is just in general to anyone thinking about removing or gutting their factory cats.................. & thanks up front for your understanding on that!
OK, with that preface out of the way..............
Catalytic converters are not "ghey" by any stretch of the imagination - and anyone that removes or "guts" their catalytic converters is doing something highly illegal, as well as polluting the air everyone else has to breathe. Nobody has the "right" to do that, nor will we knowingly help anyone trying to do that.
Here's some quick background that (I hope) will help everyone to understand this a bit better......................
Many years ago, catalytic converters *were* pretty restrictive and they did cost a significant amount of power and fuel economy - back when they came out in the 1975 model year, and continuing on for well over a decade, they were rather restrictive. Well, that hasn't been true for about a decade or so now, that is a thing of the past - and some people just aren't aware that this has changed, so we still see people wanting to gut or remove their cats. People see the 4 cats on these trucks and think "good grief, 4 cats, that's twice as much restriction!!" And that would be a seemingly reasonable assumption upon cursory examination - but wrong answer in reality.
The 4 stock cats on these 1997 & up F-150's actually flow pretty well for their application, certainly better than a single monolithic unit could. In fact, we do not advise upgrading them for performance purposes with a pair of high-flow Magnaflow cats (the *ONLY* aftermarket catalytic converter we will use on these trucks) unless the vehicle has a supercharger installed (or other major mods yielding big power gains) basically, as the power gained compared to the cost involved to do it right is pretty small.
The power gains from removing the 4 factory cats and replacing them with a pair (2) Magnaflows (or straight pipe) is about 5 HP at STOCK power levels in the F-150, and then it goes up from there as you do more mods to increase engine power. With a supercharger installed, you may see as much as 10-12 HP or a bit more from installing high-flow cats on a motor making say, 400-500 flywheel HP.
NEVER gut, strip or remove ANY of the factory catalytic converters without replacing them with properly functioning units that provide a clean exhaust that will pass a "sniff" test at the tailpipe for that model year vehicle and restoring proper downstream O2 sensor & OBD-II systems operation - please. Doing so is highly illegal in all 50 states, contrary to the claims from some that certain states - say, South Carlina, or Florida, or Arizona (or any other state) saying that is "OK." NO state says that it's OK to remove or gut the cats, although some places don't do much of an emissions inspection, unfortunately.
Removing or gutting cats just pollutes the air for everyone else to breathe, and results in very small power gains - not something you want to do.
In OBD-II vehicles, you are supposed to get a "check engine" light (or Service Engine soon, the "SES" light, same thing) on the dash if you remove or gut the cats - now we have seen that there are a few vehicles that do not throw a hard code for this as they should, but by and large, YES, removing or gutting the cats DOES result in "screwing up the computer," as you put it - and what I mean by that is that yes, doing that is supposed to result in a check engine light - a hard DTC being thrown by the PCM.
Yes, it certainly is true that we can turn off the downstream O2's in a custom tune in either the 9100 or the 6600, and completely circumvent those problems - but WE WILL NOT DO THAT on any program that I feel or suspect is going to be used on the street. Why? Because it's *illegal*, and in that situation is done only to aid in breaking the law by illegally removing the catalytic converters. The *only* time I will turn off the downstream O2's is on a or "drag race" or some other type of "maximum performance" or "racing" or "dyno" program, meaning a tune that is NOT intended to be used on public roads. So in a 4-program custom chip, we might load ONE program that does that, just so they can get a good A/F reading on the dyno or while datalogging a pass at the track, etc., but we're not going to do all the tunes like that, each vehicle that is going to be driven on the street has to have a tune that is going to pass tailpipe emissions for that vehicle's model year.
The main thing you need to know is simply that your factory cats (unless they are actually clogged, which is rare) aren't costing you any significant amount of power, mpg or performance - that stopped being the case over a decade ago, so I'd suggest not removing them.
Just FYI, gang, & hope that info helps a bit..............................
Don't take this response personally, OK?
I say that up front simply because this is one of my "pet peeves" as a tuner & F-series performance specialty company, so I'm going to be perhaps a bit "blunt" in my response - so keep in mind that this isn't "aimed" at you specifically, but instead is just in general to anyone thinking about removing or gutting their factory cats.................. & thanks up front for your understanding on that!
OK, with that preface out of the way..............
Catalytic converters are not "ghey" by any stretch of the imagination - and anyone that removes or "guts" their catalytic converters is doing something highly illegal, as well as polluting the air everyone else has to breathe. Nobody has the "right" to do that, nor will we knowingly help anyone trying to do that.
Here's some quick background that (I hope) will help everyone to understand this a bit better......................
Many years ago, catalytic converters *were* pretty restrictive and they did cost a significant amount of power and fuel economy - back when they came out in the 1975 model year, and continuing on for well over a decade, they were rather restrictive. Well, that hasn't been true for about a decade or so now, that is a thing of the past - and some people just aren't aware that this has changed, so we still see people wanting to gut or remove their cats. People see the 4 cats on these trucks and think "good grief, 4 cats, that's twice as much restriction!!" And that would be a seemingly reasonable assumption upon cursory examination - but wrong answer in reality.
The 4 stock cats on these 1997 & up F-150's actually flow pretty well for their application, certainly better than a single monolithic unit could. In fact, we do not advise upgrading them for performance purposes with a pair of high-flow Magnaflow cats (the *ONLY* aftermarket catalytic converter we will use on these trucks) unless the vehicle has a supercharger installed (or other major mods yielding big power gains) basically, as the power gained compared to the cost involved to do it right is pretty small.
The power gains from removing the 4 factory cats and replacing them with a pair (2) Magnaflows (or straight pipe) is about 5 HP at STOCK power levels in the F-150, and then it goes up from there as you do more mods to increase engine power. With a supercharger installed, you may see as much as 10-12 HP or a bit more from installing high-flow cats on a motor making say, 400-500 flywheel HP.
NEVER gut, strip or remove ANY of the factory catalytic converters without replacing them with properly functioning units that provide a clean exhaust that will pass a "sniff" test at the tailpipe for that model year vehicle and restoring proper downstream O2 sensor & OBD-II systems operation - please. Doing so is highly illegal in all 50 states, contrary to the claims from some that certain states - say, South Carlina, or Florida, or Arizona (or any other state) saying that is "OK." NO state says that it's OK to remove or gut the cats, although some places don't do much of an emissions inspection, unfortunately.
Removing or gutting cats just pollutes the air for everyone else to breathe, and results in very small power gains - not something you want to do.
In OBD-II vehicles, you are supposed to get a "check engine" light (or Service Engine soon, the "SES" light, same thing) on the dash if you remove or gut the cats - now we have seen that there are a few vehicles that do not throw a hard code for this as they should, but by and large, YES, removing or gutting the cats DOES result in "screwing up the computer," as you put it - and what I mean by that is that yes, doing that is supposed to result in a check engine light - a hard DTC being thrown by the PCM.
Yes, it certainly is true that we can turn off the downstream O2's in a custom tune in either the 9100 or the 6600, and completely circumvent those problems - but WE WILL NOT DO THAT on any program that I feel or suspect is going to be used on the street. Why? Because it's *illegal*, and in that situation is done only to aid in breaking the law by illegally removing the catalytic converters. The *only* time I will turn off the downstream O2's is on a or "drag race" or some other type of "maximum performance" or "racing" or "dyno" program, meaning a tune that is NOT intended to be used on public roads. So in a 4-program custom chip, we might load ONE program that does that, just so they can get a good A/F reading on the dyno or while datalogging a pass at the track, etc., but we're not going to do all the tunes like that, each vehicle that is going to be driven on the street has to have a tune that is going to pass tailpipe emissions for that vehicle's model year.
The main thing you need to know is simply that your factory cats (unless they are actually clogged, which is rare) aren't costing you any significant amount of power, mpg or performance - that stopped being the case over a decade ago, so I'd suggest not removing them.
Just FYI, gang, & hope that info helps a bit..............................
#6
08-12-2004, 04:23 PM
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why?
Originally posted by Superchips_Distributor
Hi Bull63,
Don't take this response personally, OK?
I say that up front simply because this is one of my "pet peeves" as a tuner & F-series performance specialty company, so I'm going to be perhaps a bit "blunt" in my response - so keep in mind that this isn't "aimed" at you specifically, but instead is just in general to anyone thinking about removing or gutting their factory cats.................. & thanks up front for your understanding on that!
OK, with that preface out of the way..............my oem cats on my 03 read less than 3 psi backpressure at 5200 roms under load- this was measured at the y-pipe after the 4 cats- so theres the proof they aren't restrictive-phil
Catalytic converters are not "ghey" by any stretch of the imagination - and anyone that removes or "guts" their catalytic converters is doing something highly illegal, as well as polluting the air everyone else has to breathe. Nobody has the "right" to do that, nor will we knowingly help anyone trying to do that.
Here's some quick background that (I hope) will help everyone to understand this a bit better......................
Many years ago, catalytic converters *were* pretty restrictive and they did cost a significant amount of power and fuel economy - back when they came out in the 1975 model year, and continuing on for well over a decade, they were rather restrictive. Well, that hasn't been true for about a decade or so now, that is a thing of the past - and some people just aren't aware that this has changed, so we still see people wanting to gut or remove their cats. People see the 4 cats on these trucks and think "good grief, 4 cats, that's twice as much restriction!!" And that would be a seemingly reasonable assumption upon cursory examination - but wrong answer in reality.
The 4 stock cats on these 1997 & up F-150's actually flow pretty well for their application, certainly better than a single monolithic unit could. In fact, we do not advise upgrading them for performance purposes with a pair of high-flow Magnaflow cats (the *ONLY* aftermarket catalytic converter we will use on these trucks) unless the vehicle has a supercharger installed (or other major mods yielding big power gains) basically, as the power gained compared to the cost involved to do it right is pretty small.
The power gains from removing the 4 factory cats and replacing them with a pair (2) Magnaflows (or straight pipe) is about 5 HP at STOCK power levels in the F-150, and then it goes up from there as you do more mods to increase engine power. With a supercharger installed, you may see as much as 10-12 HP or a bit more from installing high-flow cats on a motor making say, 400-500 flywheel HP.
NEVER gut, strip or remove ANY of the factory catalytic converters without replacing them with properly functioning units that provide a clean exhaust that will pass a "sniff" test at the tailpipe for that model year vehicle and restoring proper downstream O2 sensor & OBD-II systems operation - please. Doing so is highly illegal in all 50 states, contrary to the claims from some that certain states - say, South Carlina, or Florida, or Arizona (or any other state) saying that is "OK." NO state says that it's OK to remove or gut the cats, although some places don't do much of an emissions inspection, unfortunately.
Removing or gutting cats just pollutes the air for everyone else to breathe, and results in very small power gains - not something you want to do.
In OBD-II vehicles, you are supposed to get a "check engine" light (or Service Engine soon, the "SES" light, same thing) on the dash if you remove or gut the cats - now we have seen that there are a few vehicles that do not throw a hard code for this as they should, but by and large, YES, removing or gutting the cats DOES result in "screwing up the computer," as you put it - and what I mean by that is that yes, doing that is supposed to result in a check engine light - a hard DTC being thrown by the PCM.
Yes, it certainly is true that we can turn off the downstream O2's in a custom tune in either the 9100 or the 6600, and completely circumvent those problems - but WE WILL NOT DO THAT on any program that I feel or suspect is going to be used on the street. Why? Because it's *illegal*, and in that situation is done only to aid in breaking the law by illegally removing the catalytic converters. The *only* time I will turn off the downstream O2's is on a or "drag race" or some other type of "maximum performance" or "racing" or "dyno" program, meaning a tune that is NOT intended to be used on public roads. So in a 4-program custom chip, we might load ONE program that does that, just so they can get a good A/F reading on the dyno or while datalogging a pass at the track, etc., but we're not going to do all the tunes like that, each vehicle that is going to be driven on the street has to have a tune that is going to pass tailpipe emissions for that vehicle's model year.
The main thing you need to know is simply that your factory cats (unless they are actually clogged, which is rare) aren't costing you any significant amount of power, mpg or performance - that stopped being the case over a decade ago, so I'd suggest not removing them.
Just FYI, gang, & hope that info helps a bit..............................
Hi Bull63,
Don't take this response personally, OK?
I say that up front simply because this is one of my "pet peeves" as a tuner & F-series performance specialty company, so I'm going to be perhaps a bit "blunt" in my response - so keep in mind that this isn't "aimed" at you specifically, but instead is just in general to anyone thinking about removing or gutting their factory cats.................. & thanks up front for your understanding on that!
OK, with that preface out of the way..............my oem cats on my 03 read less than 3 psi backpressure at 5200 roms under load- this was measured at the y-pipe after the 4 cats- so theres the proof they aren't restrictive-phil
Catalytic converters are not "ghey" by any stretch of the imagination - and anyone that removes or "guts" their catalytic converters is doing something highly illegal, as well as polluting the air everyone else has to breathe. Nobody has the "right" to do that, nor will we knowingly help anyone trying to do that.
Here's some quick background that (I hope) will help everyone to understand this a bit better......................
Many years ago, catalytic converters *were* pretty restrictive and they did cost a significant amount of power and fuel economy - back when they came out in the 1975 model year, and continuing on for well over a decade, they were rather restrictive. Well, that hasn't been true for about a decade or so now, that is a thing of the past - and some people just aren't aware that this has changed, so we still see people wanting to gut or remove their cats. People see the 4 cats on these trucks and think "good grief, 4 cats, that's twice as much restriction!!" And that would be a seemingly reasonable assumption upon cursory examination - but wrong answer in reality.
The 4 stock cats on these 1997 & up F-150's actually flow pretty well for their application, certainly better than a single monolithic unit could. In fact, we do not advise upgrading them for performance purposes with a pair of high-flow Magnaflow cats (the *ONLY* aftermarket catalytic converter we will use on these trucks) unless the vehicle has a supercharger installed (or other major mods yielding big power gains) basically, as the power gained compared to the cost involved to do it right is pretty small.
The power gains from removing the 4 factory cats and replacing them with a pair (2) Magnaflows (or straight pipe) is about 5 HP at STOCK power levels in the F-150, and then it goes up from there as you do more mods to increase engine power. With a supercharger installed, you may see as much as 10-12 HP or a bit more from installing high-flow cats on a motor making say, 400-500 flywheel HP.
NEVER gut, strip or remove ANY of the factory catalytic converters without replacing them with properly functioning units that provide a clean exhaust that will pass a "sniff" test at the tailpipe for that model year vehicle and restoring proper downstream O2 sensor & OBD-II systems operation - please. Doing so is highly illegal in all 50 states, contrary to the claims from some that certain states - say, South Carlina, or Florida, or Arizona (or any other state) saying that is "OK." NO state says that it's OK to remove or gut the cats, although some places don't do much of an emissions inspection, unfortunately.
Removing or gutting cats just pollutes the air for everyone else to breathe, and results in very small power gains - not something you want to do.
In OBD-II vehicles, you are supposed to get a "check engine" light (or Service Engine soon, the "SES" light, same thing) on the dash if you remove or gut the cats - now we have seen that there are a few vehicles that do not throw a hard code for this as they should, but by and large, YES, removing or gutting the cats DOES result in "screwing up the computer," as you put it - and what I mean by that is that yes, doing that is supposed to result in a check engine light - a hard DTC being thrown by the PCM.
Yes, it certainly is true that we can turn off the downstream O2's in a custom tune in either the 9100 or the 6600, and completely circumvent those problems - but WE WILL NOT DO THAT on any program that I feel or suspect is going to be used on the street. Why? Because it's *illegal*, and in that situation is done only to aid in breaking the law by illegally removing the catalytic converters. The *only* time I will turn off the downstream O2's is on a or "drag race" or some other type of "maximum performance" or "racing" or "dyno" program, meaning a tune that is NOT intended to be used on public roads. So in a 4-program custom chip, we might load ONE program that does that, just so they can get a good A/F reading on the dyno or while datalogging a pass at the track, etc., but we're not going to do all the tunes like that, each vehicle that is going to be driven on the street has to have a tune that is going to pass tailpipe emissions for that vehicle's model year.
The main thing you need to know is simply that your factory cats (unless they are actually clogged, which is rare) aren't costing you any significant amount of power, mpg or performance - that stopped being the case over a decade ago, so I'd suggest not removing them.
Just FYI, gang, & hope that info helps a bit..............................
#7
08-12-2004, 04:43 PM
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#8
08-12-2004, 06:06 PM
#9
08-14-2004, 02:17 PM
Former Sponsor
Hi Phil,
Thanks for reminding us of that data - I had forgotten that you too, had done the backpressure testing of the stock cats - that's *excellent* and important data. I remembered the data, as we've tested a few over the years, but I had forgotten completely about you having done the backpressure testing as well. Nice to see yet another confirmation that Ford has done a pretty good job in that area, that'll be helpful to a lot of owners.
Hi Bull63,
Thanks for your understanding - almost every time I make a post like that, I end up worrying have I stuck my continent-sized foot in my planet-sized mouth again........... It's really just intended as a reminder that today's cats aren't so badly restrictive as they used to be, so people don't have to strip them or spend the money to buy high-flow units and the Y-pipe "surgery" that is needed to install them neatly, to "recover" any significant amount of power or mpg lost from restriction in that area, etc.
Have fun guys,
Thanks for reminding us of that data - I had forgotten that you too, had done the backpressure testing of the stock cats - that's *excellent* and important data. I remembered the data, as we've tested a few over the years, but I had forgotten completely about you having done the backpressure testing as well. Nice to see yet another confirmation that Ford has done a pretty good job in that area, that'll be helpful to a lot of owners.
Hi Bull63,
Thanks for your understanding - almost every time I make a post like that, I end up worrying have I stuck my continent-sized foot in my planet-sized mouth again...........
It's really just intended as a reminder that today's cats aren't so badly restrictive as they used to be, so people don't have to strip them or spend the money to buy high-flow units and the Y-pipe "surgery" that is needed to install them neatly, to "recover" any significant amount of power or mpg lost from restriction in that area, etc.Have fun guys,
#10
08-25-2004, 03:44 AM
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Hi Mike,
Got a question now. My truck has 144K on the factory cats. I'm starting to get the dreaded "rotten egg" smell from the exhaust(cats) and noticing a red glow from them after driving for a while. Would you recommend changing them? And if so, what to use? MAgnaflows, Catco....? Cause I'll be damned if I'm gonna spend $1700 for new factory cats. $992 for the left bank and $735 for the right bank.
Got a question now. My truck has 144K on the factory cats. I'm starting to get the dreaded "rotten egg" smell from the exhaust(cats) and noticing a red glow from them after driving for a while. Would you recommend changing them? And if so, what to use? MAgnaflows, Catco....? Cause I'll be damned if I'm gonna spend $1700 for new factory cats. $992 for the left bank and $735 for the right bank.
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08-25-2004, 06:19 AM
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#12
08-25-2004, 04:10 PM
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Hi Pittsburgh,
The subject of catalytic converter diagnosis & replacement isn't on topic for the "Computer Chips" section, and is far too detailed to type it all out.
I'll give you some brief info for now, & then you'll need to call us to go over this properly......................
At 144K miles those factory cats have certainly seen better days, you're right about that. Now if they glow at night after driving, that isn't the end of the world, the PCM will kick in and dump extra fuel in if the cats get too hot - but just from 144K miles of use, those cats aren't going to be operating at anywhere near optimal efficiency, at best - at worst they may not be cleaning up the exhaust at all. However, if they are visibly glowing during daytime, there's a problem that needs to be corrected. Keep in mind that the cats could be glowing due to being clogged, or they could be glowing due to improper A/F ratio control, like worn out O2 sensors, etc.
Replacing the factory Y-pipe & cat assembly with the original factory Y-pipe assembly is very expensive, but it sounds like somebody quoted you wrong - it's actually about $1100 for the complete Y-pipe assembly with all 4 factory cats, last time I looked. But even so, that's still a LOT of money, and you don't need to spend anywhere near that much to get a set of properly functioning cats on the vehicle!
What we generally recommend is to simply install a pair of our high-flow catalytic converters, & when you call we can tell you how to do it & what to do to restore proper OBD-II system operation, costs, etc. Our phone number is listed just below, give us a shout if you'd like to go over this, OK?
Have fun,
The subject of catalytic converter diagnosis & replacement isn't on topic for the "Computer Chips" section, and is far too detailed to type it all out.
I'll give you some brief info for now, & then you'll need to call us to go over this properly......................
At 144K miles those factory cats have certainly seen better days, you're right about that. Now if they glow at night after driving, that isn't the end of the world, the PCM will kick in and dump extra fuel in if the cats get too hot - but just from 144K miles of use, those cats aren't going to be operating at anywhere near optimal efficiency, at best - at worst they may not be cleaning up the exhaust at all. However, if they are visibly glowing during daytime, there's a problem that needs to be corrected. Keep in mind that the cats could be glowing due to being clogged, or they could be glowing due to improper A/F ratio control, like worn out O2 sensors, etc.
Replacing the factory Y-pipe & cat assembly with the original factory Y-pipe assembly is very expensive, but it sounds like somebody quoted you wrong - it's actually about $1100 for the complete Y-pipe assembly with all 4 factory cats, last time I looked. But even so, that's still a LOT of money, and you don't need to spend anywhere near that much to get a set of properly functioning cats on the vehicle!
What we generally recommend is to simply install a pair of our high-flow catalytic converters, & when you call we can tell you how to do it & what to do to restore proper OBD-II system operation, costs, etc. Our phone number is listed just below, give us a shout if you'd like to go over this, OK?
Have fun,
Last edited by Superchips_Distributor; 08-25-2004 at 04:15 PM.