Dan,
Interesting post. I'm thinking about getting the Superchip but after seeing your results now I'm not sure. I guess the only question that remains is, Why do so many people claim that it has given them big gains? Most people claim that it has worked. Some say it doesn't. But all in all seems that 80% or more are pretty happy with it. Anybody else do a test like Dan did?

------------------
2001 SuperCrew Amazon Green/Silver 5.4 4x4 Capt chairs,cd changer,Lim slip,Tow Pkg, Pw seat, BFG 33/12.5/16.5 on American Eagle AE 589 Rims, Airaid FIPK, Ravin Z55 Performance Exhaust, Sliding rear, Keyless/lojack

 

It's a shame that we have to see attacks such as this continued now into this section, as have been going on over in the Engines section in another thread for some time now, started by this same individual. I guess because I have not been playing this game over in that thread, now the detractors are not happy, and are now attempting to do their damage here, since they haven't been successful over there.

In the thread where this was started over in the Engines section, numerous people have countered these statements, and posted very solid gains in the same vehicles with the Superchip. We've been here every day for years now, discussed everyones results, performance gains, mileage results, etc., and just how the people who use the Superchip feel about it, and that couldn't possibly happen if the product didn't work, and deliver results for so many people using it. And it's been quite obvious over the years that the vast majority of people are very happy, and they know they got a solid power gain. It's been documented here countless times.

The charge this individual makes that the graph shows crank horsepower is false, and he knows that, as we specifically discussed it, and I still have the emails, this is just where it starts, with this mis-representation. It is rear-wheel, and it is the very first graph from years ago, from the first development programs and is in no way current, as this individual also knows from our discussions. It was posted here by the Webmaster in his efforts of setting up our online ordering system here some time ago, he was simply trying to make it look nice for us, and went to extra efforts to do that, for which we thank him of course. Yes, I'd like to see it updated too, and we'll see what the manufacturer can provide when they re-open after their Christmas Holiday.

However, it is very clear from the many posts, both in the same thread where this indivdual started all this over in the Engines section, as well as the people who have been posting here for years, that they're getting solid gains and performance increases, and much more than any 5-8 horsepower can ever provide. The claim that only 5-8 horsepower was attained on a Lincoln Mark 8 is particularly close to me, as I have personally owned 3 of those vehicles myself, a 93, a 94, and now a 95, so that won't fly with me at all, that was about the worst vehicle to use as an example, given the fact that I've had 3 of them, all Superchipped. All of which have been on a dyno, and have made gains of well over 20 horsepower, the lowest peak gain was 23 horsepower on 93 octane pump premium, years ago. Let's see if I can predict how this will go....... because that was years ago and I couldn't have cared less about saving those dyno plots forever and hence do not have them to post to ward off this latest attack, then the fact that I don't have my old dyno plots to post will be used to say it never happened, those gains weren't made. Somebody always has to go on the attack, and it sure is getting old.

The way Superchips chassis dyno runs are made is to put the vehicle in a 1:1 ratio (3rd gear in automatics), which requires that the transmission be programmed to remain in 3rd gear all the time, so that the numbers aren't throw off by gear ratio skew. The vehicle is placed in 3rd gear, and the dyno pull is made at full-throttle, running until the engine power falls off (to determine power peak), then the drag-down test is done to determine driveline losses, so you get rear wheel, driveline loss and flywheel power figures, before and after. That is how Superchips does it, before and after.

Another fact that was clearly not mentioned is the fact that you must also clear the computer and drain all residual voltage from the system anytime you change the computer's program, and it appears that this was not done, either, and it's a must. Otherwise the new program takes effect far more gradually, taking a good 50-100 miles to come in, and sometimes even more. The procedure Superchips uses is to install the chip, test start the engine to insure proper conection, then disconnect the battery, turn the headlights on to drain all residual voltage, then turn them back off, re-connect the battery, and start the dyno run. This way, you get a complete fresh program load each time, when you install the chip and when you remove it.

It's quite obvious that because this individual hasn't been successful in destroying us, Superchips, or these message boards with his attacks over in his thread in the Engines section, that he now has to come here to try and do the exact same things, meanwhile, accusing me of objecting to anything negative about Superchips. Cute tactics. Very cute, but it's a shame to see what happens as a result. It polarizes people here into "Mike supporters" and "Mike detractors", making it a personal issue & attack, getting everyone who is silly enough to perpetuate these tactics all riled up, and meanwhile, the mood, tone, and friendly atmosphere of our F-150 Online community suffers as a result. Nothing is changed, no progress is made, just more attacks and rancor, and if I dare say anthing, well then, I'm just a dishonest "Superchips apologist", is the basic idea being promoted by these actions. Cute tactics.

For all those that have posted their gains and countered all of this that was started over in the Engines section, we sincerely thank you. You know, as we know from your feedback to us, that you're getting nice performance gains, and that the Superchip is generally considered the single best "bang-for-the-buck" performance enhancer you can add to these vehicles.

And it's happened time after time after time here over the years, and unfortunately will most likely happen again and again, time after time. And every time it happens, the peole who have been enjoying the performance of their Superchips keep right on enjoying it, and we keep right on seeing all the posts from those who install them and notice the difference in power and performance, and post the same positive results, time after time.

While we can only hope that this thread doesn't turn into the same rancor that failed over in the Engines section, it sure has started off with that same deliberate intention, and for what it's worth to all, we apologize on behalf of the few people that wish to turn F-150 Online into a war zone over Superchips.

------------------
Mike Troyer
Performance Products, Inc.
National Distributor of Superchips
(540) 862-9515
Email: mtroyer@compuserve.com
Performance Products F150Online Superchip ordering system: F150Online Superchip Ordering System
First National F-150 Online Rally Event Organizer

[This message has been edited by Superchips_Distributor (edited 12-30-2000).]

 

Dan,

Running without the chip is for sure the best way to insure a proper base line. Did you disconnect the battery between runs? Even by doing so it can take numerous driving cycles to allow for the EWMA to adjust to the chip. Check out the Exponentially Weighted Moving Average section at the iATN web site. This explains why it takes a few cycles for the chip or any other mod to make its presence known. You did know that the chip replaces the look up tables? By removing the chip first you denied access to the full potential of the chip. I would also read up on the I/M Readiness Code section. Great site that iATN, isn't it?

Kindest regards

Jean Marc Chartier

------------------
00 F-150 XLT SC Flairside 4x4 4.6 w/5spd 3.55LSD
Warn XD9000i, skid plates, Draw tite class III,
Rancho RSX Reflex shocks,
BFG 285/75 R16 MTs,
Borla Cat Back, Headman Headers,
Modified Air Cleaner Outlet Tube
and air box, Ported Throttle body,
Shortened MAF sensor tower,
K&N air filter,
Superchips





[This message has been edited by JMC (edited 12-30-2000).]

 

Dankryszczuk, how are you doing.
I was just wondering what the torque was, you keep talking H.P. numbers ,i want torque, thats what turns my crank. Oh could it be possible that you didnt clean the comps
termanils good, it just seems by looking at your numbers, that the chip was never installed, but any how can you give the torque numbers, which is most important, being that is what propells you off the line.

------------------
1999 Ford F-150 xlt .supercab, 4x4 sport pkg. 4.6 Triton, Black with grey int,A.R.E. Lid, ford bug deflector,Q-Forms,eclipes head unit,and speakers,kicker solo's for subs,1000 watt amp. Flow master 70 series, K&N drop in,jet chip .will be geting a superchip.

 

Hey Dan... here's an idea. Don't buy a chip as it's pretty obvious that you can't properly install one.

 

Huh?

It is plain to see from Superchips' graph for a '97 4.6:



that you get the benefit of 25 horsepower somewhere during the period between 70 and 80 mph.

You gain an additional 12 horsepower for a moment just after 80 MPH.

By adding the Superchip, and using Premium Gasoline at only 10-15% additional cost -- you can gain an additional 4-6 HP across the entire speed range.

The best part is that you gain up to an additional 150 HP at speeds over 105 MPH.

------------------
Y2K™ 7700 4x4
Jim - N8JG@Hotmail.com


[This message has been edited by jgorka (edited 12-30-2000).]

 

Mike,

Be a man, cut out the childish stuff. I'll answer all your questions and re-ask those which you again failed to address.
1)I do not have any financial or personal interest in Superchips. I am a little upset with the lack of performance I got and with the terrible response I got from Ken at Superchips Technical.
2)I conceded in my original post that there are many vehicles that have shown solid gains with chips, as there are some that have shown very little. If newer computers learn to run on premium, there may be less of a reason to buy a chip for 99 and newer.
3)Yes, the Superchip website dyno plot was probably a cheap shot. Why is it still on the website? Where is the dyno runs from something other than a powerstroke that is 99 or newer?
4)The reason I brought this information to this site was to get a larger response.
5)The best Hp gain anywhere in the powerband for the 93 Mark8 was 8 wheel Hp.
6)The acceleration dyno runs I made are made are exactly the same as Superchips', except mine were done in 2nd gear. The gear will only change the amount of drivetrain losses, not power output. So the 2nd vs. 3rd thing is irrelevant. I also did not attempt to calculate drivetrain losses. Why bother, they are the same with or without the chip and you cannot change them. I also did lug down tests that showed no gain on the 99F150.
7)The only fact that you have to maybe save the chip is that I did not clear the computer between runs. Both Ken at Superchips and George at rpmoutlet told me this wasnot necesary. Someone is wrong. Yet I still did get 8Hp on the Mark8 without clearing the computer. This may be due the difference between a 93 and 99 computer. When my dyno computer returns, I'll retest the Mark 8 to see if it learned any more Hp.
8)In the engines section, I was not the only one with a dyno that didnot see any gains from a Superchip. Many others that are happy with their chip did not notice any power increase, but liked the improved driveability. There is many that do see increases and many that don't. Don't discount the dont's. That was one of the original reasons for the post.
9) How about answering the questions on: A)What do you know about a stock PCM relearning its timing curve for premium fuel.
B)What does Superchip specifically do during a shift...change ignition timing and/or line pressure? Does Superchip actually change the fuel trim or just the timing curve, especially at wide open throttle. It's nice to know exactly what you are buying.
I suspect you won't answer #9 since it's not in your interest to do so. Maybe a Ford engineer out there will.
C) Also, won't the Ford NGS take care of correcting the gear change to 4.10 gears for about a half hours labor at a dealer (if they won't let you borrow it).
Please, factual responses only.

Dan Kryszczuk

 

JMC,
Thanks for the good info. I'll try it next month. And yes, iatn is a great site.
Dan

 

dankryszuk. i think you should put the 93 octane vs. 87 octane to the test on the dyno. that would be your smoking gun. you are truley fighting a up hill battle as most people are really happy with the computer chips and its performance gains. so many differnt groups on this board: v-6, 4.6, 5.4, v-10, diesels and they all for the most part like the chip and lets not forget about the lightning group, most of these guys go to the dyno monthly and the drag strip weekly and 99% of them swear by computer chips.
one last thing. if the superchip gives you no performance gain (and it is the most liked chip on this site) are you really going to drop more cash on another brand of chip?

 

I recently Superchipped my 99 5.4L. Here is the hard data done on a Clayton eddy current dyno with a weather station that factors in changes of temperature and pressure throughout the day. All runs were started with the temperature gauge at the same position. At least 10 minutes between runs allowed the cell to clear. Fresh air from another room was blown onto the front of the truck with the hood up. This test was a lug down test(constant speed) test. Four runs were made. Run 1 without chip, Run 2 with chip, 3 with chip, and 4 without chip. I will list the rpm instead of mph, since this eliminates tire slippage as a variable. 4470 is the actual Hp peak of this engine. All tests were done in 2nd gear, same day with Shell 93 octane.
2765 3140 3840 4470rpm
Run 1 no chip 118.7 148.7 184.2 193.3
Run 2 chip 119.3 151.2 185.0 194.6 Hp
Run 3 chip 119.9 150.5 184.5 196.0
Run 4 no chip 117.6 151.7 187.5 195.4

Average and peak gains = 0.6Hp INSIGNIFICANT
Torque gains and losses were proportional.

I also did accelerations tests(programmed load,not inertia) on the dyno beween 2600 and 4800 rpm. Between 2600 and 3800 the curves were on top of each other = no difference. Between 3800 and 4700 the chip actually showed 1 Hp LOST. But again, this is insignificant, since my repeatability using these methods seems to be good to only about 2Hp. In the past my repeatabilty has been within 1 Hp.

In any case, both tests show that that the chip did not provide any Power gains on my vehicle. I know the onslaught is coming, save your venting. I do believe chips can help older vehicles that cannot learn to advance their timing. My wife's Mark8 got 8Hp wheels(not the 26 claimed), but they obviously didn't do their homework on the shifts. And some newer calibrations must help some, too many people claim it's so. On my F150, only the shifting was improved, mostly the 1-2. Kind of like noise on a cat back, if you feel or hear something different, it must have more power. Not quite.

The interesting thing about previous dyno runs was that the stock computer learned to advance the timing curve to run on premium fuel. I gained 6-8 wheel Hp by running premium fuel for 10 days before testing - no chip. Does the Superchip get all of its Hp by just advancing timing? If so, the stock computer can do the same thing. I've heard this learning function starts sometime in 98. Both the regular and premium were both Shell always bought from the same station. Mike, how about a comment on this PCM learning.

The Ford 96 and newer computers do learn their open loop fuel trims(including wide open throttle) based on closed loop operation(using oxygen sensor). Any technician can find this in the Ford section of iatn.net (an affiliation of 30k technicians)

Summary of my dyno results to date in reverse chronological order, from memory, wheel Hp:
Superchip NO Gains $220
ASP pulleys 5-7Hp $170
93 octane 6-8Hp
Gibson sweptside catback SS 3Hp $369
K&N 4Hp $40
replace silencer into fender 1.5 Hp $9
port throttle body 67to70 ? $3

Be careful of any saleman, including Mike. I believe Mike to be very knowlegeable and he supplies great information to this group. He will also try to get you a good program, and I have heard his customer service is excellent. However, he will not guarantee the hp gains that Superchip claims or anything close, I've asked. He also will discount any negative evidence regarding the chips. Are all the gains just the 6-8 Hp from running premium gas that the stock computer can deliver on its own? Mike (and Superchips) seems to hold back information on exactly what the chip does. Does it change fuel trims or just ignition timing? What changes during shifts, timing and/or line pressure? Gas mileage is supposed to increase, don't count on it. See Rand's excellent post. Those that discount it as unscientific are fools that know nothing about statistical sampling. His test is VERY valid and does show no significant changes in gas mileage. Superchips should bear the burden of proof.

Superchips' own dyno run on a 97 4.6L on their website shows only a maximum of 8Hp crank gained at any rpm, except during the shift. The only place you will find the 26Hp claimed is during the shift. Then maybe we should start rating shift kits for Hp gains? Or maybe they don't have proof?

I,m going to try a Diablosport chip next month - $199. This company is supposedly made up of former Superchip employees. They claim 26 Hp instead of 28. I'm not real optimistic.

Dan Kryszczuk

 

I don't really care for all tha fancy shmansy stuff
but i know one thing
i have raced this one truck over and over and my front bumper is at his back bumper everytime
installed my chip and we add a reversal
now he is at my back bumper (well roll pan) that is all that matters too me
and it feels good shifting from 1st to 2nd

could of outran him better but my darn truck kept spinning them rear rubber thingies too much

lol

(i sure wish i was born a hick, it is more fun)


------------------
1999 F-150 Supercab Styleside Lariat 5.4L V8 3.55LS gears
Tan Leather Seats Front/Back
Captain Chairs in front
Tan Leather Wrapped Steering Wheel
Remote Entry
Signal Mirrors

Navigator Front End
Factory 2tone Red on top of Gold
Metallic Flake Ghost Flames in the gold
18inch Wheels
Lowered 2/3
Rhino Bedliner
Euro "Atezza" Tail Lights

Stock CD player
Rockford Fosgate Punch 250a Amplifier
2 RF Punch DXL 8inch Subwoofers
2 Kenwood Midranges (in the front doors)

K&N "Drop In" Filter
Flowmasters

Within the next Month: Superchip, 3/4 drop (already got the money just need to order them)

By my 17th birthday (March 23rd): White Face Guages, HOPEFULLY A SUPERCHARGER PACKAGE

Some Quick Photos
www.geocities.com/thepyromaniackid

Things That Have Gone Wrong So Far:
Burnt Anti-Freeze Smell
The Anti-Freeze seems to leaking but the fluid level hasn't gone done any
This has Caused a Coil to go out
The passenger side Door-Lock went out
The driver side Door-Lock went out
Muth Signal Mirrors Reflective Backing Cracked All To Hell

Fixed under warranty: Coil, Passenger Side Door-Lock
Will be Fixed under warranty: Driver Side Door-Lock, Muth Signal Mirrors
(Wonder what the Ford House will say when I show up with a Lincoln Truck for warranty work)

Can't FInd The Anti-Freeze Leak (?)
Tried putting in AlumniSeal and hasn't got hot enough to see if it still has the
Burnt Anit-Freeze Smell

 

BrotherDave,
You're right, it is an uphill battle, because many do see gains. That I do not dispute. The original reason I posted this was simple, I wanted people to know Superchip did not deliver any gains on my 99 5.4L, and they may not see any on theirs. All chip makers readily recite Hp and torque gains without being willing to back them up. Before I bought a Superchip, I called both Superchips and Mike(and Hypertech and Jet) to see if they would guarantee results. Since I can duplicate any dyno testing they did, I was, and still am willing to install their chip anyway they see fit, and duplicate their dyno program loads to verify the chip does what it advertises. I was quite surprised at their hesitation to guarantee results. This is their major advertising point, yet they do not have results readily available or do not want to produce them. I hope the dyno runs were actually done. Or was data from a few vehicles used to guesstimate others? Why would they have such a problem with an independent duplicating their testing? I would be pleased with 75% of their claimed 28Hp crank. Even 50% would be marginally acceptable, and about what I expected. The distributor that sold the chip, not Mike, and Superchips both told me I should see immediate gains, without disconnecting the battery. I saw gains on a Mark8 this way. And I don't think it is in the installation instructions. From JMC's comments, I do think it may make a difference, but shouldn't some of the gains be immediate? Enough babbling.

I will put the 93 vs. 87 octane to the test. It will probably be late February before I have run enough tanks through, since a little premium left in a tank will raise the octane of regular much more than proportionally. That is 1/2 tank 87 + 1/2 tank 93 = 91-92 octane. Yes, 89 octane is a rip off.

Why will I even try another chip (Diablo)? I'm hoping that someone did their homework on my calibration. And, I can send it back, too. I am lucky enough to not have the dyno runs cost me anything, except time. It's an education anyway.

From what I've read about the Jet chip, Superchip does not even have any competition for 99 and newer right now. And they would like you to think they have the only answer for a gear change on 99 and newer. That is why Mike will not answer many such questions. I don't blame him, he might lose some sales. But he covers it up with personal attacks. Instead he should be quiet and professional and let it fade away like most salesman...or answer honestly and completely.

As for Lightning and Powerstroke owners, of course the chip works great for them, they cranked up the boost on the blowers. Everybodies chip delivers power on these.
Dan

 

I just bought one for the stickers...heh heh. Seriously, Superchips has a great product. I have a 5-speed so you can count out shift firmness right away. (other than its a little tough going into 2nd at 5200 rpm..utt..umm)I did however notice nice power gains throughout the RPM range. I didnt see much of a MPG improvement, but its soooooo hard to get true #'s when your foot is always in the gas.....DanKryszczuk...Its so simple, if you dont like it just pull it out and be done with it. No need to shame anyone here.

------------------
1999 F150 4x4 XLT BLACK ORP 4.6 5 SPEED 3.55
LUND HOOD SHEILD
K&N
FLOWMASTER SERIES 40 SINGLE OUTLET
CAPTAIN CHAIRS
PIONEER 6815's(for now)
SUPERCHIP
AIRBOX MOD
WAAG BRUSH GUARD
SPIRALMAX
KENWOOD 9015
SUPERCHIP STICKERS
MTX THUNDERFORM
KICKER 240 AMP
PIAA 9007'S
LUND RACERBACK
LUND LUNAR VISOR
NO DOOR CRACKS!!!




[This message has been edited by BLACKENEDFORD (edited 01-01-2001).]

 

Dan, You will have problems having a dealer adjust for the 4:10 gears; they simply cannot do it. I just had a dealer make a valiant attempt to do just that and he was not successful. It seems that if Ford did not offer an option--in this case 4:10 gears on the 99 5.4 4x2, then they can't adjust for it. If you find out differently (I mean actually have it done) please let me know. Otherwise, good luck on your search.

Before I got hooked up with Mike, there was a guy here in town that sold a chip from Auto Logistics (I think that's the name). This chip was supposedly from Ford engineers and it supposedly would fix my speedo. The problem was that in order for the guy to justify buying the program for my truck, he needed several other owners to also want the chip. So far I am the only one that has requested it. Rather than wait on this, I went with the Superchip and it has been worth the money. Either way you go, you will spend $300 on a fix for the gears.

Regards,
Ron

 

someone correct me if i am wrong but the only way to increase boost on a lightning or any supercharger is thru pulley changes. as for a powerstoke it think the only way to increase boost is thru messing with the waste gate, does the computer control this? i think most of what a chip does is change intial and total timiing as well as change the timing curve and of coarse the transmission shift points.
one last thing, no one from any other performance product post or answers questions on this board,( i am sure there is and someone will correct me) at the very least give mike t. a little credit for jumping right in the middle of the fire and leaving himself wide open. i have been hotrodding cars since, 1984 when it comes to aftermarket performance parts there are no guarantees on performance.