As I read this post a few thoughts occurred to me. I'm not going back and find each post and quote, so if it applies to you read if not bugger off.

1st. If you think what Clinton did in Somolia and Albania is anything similar to what happened after 9-11 think again. Some quick examples are as follows 9-11: ALL US military bases were put on full alert to defend themselves and the country while maintaining personnel to keep Iraq in check while fighting a full out local war. It sounds remarkably similar to the Hold-Fight-Hold senario the military was manned for (read: military operating at full capacity). After 8 years of underfunding/misfunding the military had to be reconstituted. (I saw many Air Force planes that could not fly because there was no money to fix them, kind of like Russia. I also was not allowed to qualify on many weapons due to no bullets from lack of funding).
Somolia-- occurred before major reductions in the military forces and any expended ordinance was not replaced. There wasn't a full alert when we went into Somolia.
Albania--Occurred after the reduction in forces however fewer people were needed because again all bases were not put on full alert.

Maybe we should go back to the Clinton era where we just throw a couple of Tomahawk missles at countries and hope they go away. In case you forgot we have been attacked a few times by Al Qeada and groups linked to Al Qeada--ever hear of the first WTC tower attack? How about two Embassies in Africa in 1998? Maybe you've even heared about the U.S.S Cole. I think after the fourth time being retribution was the call of the day.

As far as Switzerland being a power. Yeah they are finacially powerful, but they also pertty much have to bend to everyones will. Kind of like the wimp on the playground when the buuly comes around to him he has to pay or get pummeled.

As far as us being nice to N. Korea. I have to fall back on an old cliche--An armed society is a polite society. If they can hit us with nukes we will be polite.

I have seen first hand what it takes to knock out a terrorist group. It takes a LOT of control by the government. Which bascally boils down to I don't think the American people as a whole are willing to give up enough civil rights to erracticate the group.

The National Guard being issued Atropine--If they are doing an Anti-Terrorism job they should have been given the drugs when they were called up. I'll almost bet they were issued their chemical suits.

As far as the war being about oil. If you tell your child to do something or there will be a punishment and you do not follow through with the punishment the child will not learn. We gave Iraq 12 years to comply with the provisions of the U.N. peace deal and they never complied. Evertime they were told if they do not comply actions would be taken against them. Frace was saying we should end the embargo because it did not work. Sounds like they admitted defeat to me. I think some call it personal accountability. We held Saddams feet to the fire, the UN told him what to do for 12 years then finally punished him for not compling.

I'm done now, because I cna't rmember what all had occurred to me.

 

I don't give a crap who you are or what you experienced. I'm an American too, and I'll tell you whatever I want. The woe is me stuff is invalid.

The only effect it would have it to send you on a tirade in 12 different directions that I didn't want to waste tons of time defending my postion on. In the end it would have been all for not because you are set in stone and would not listen anyway. Fortuantely I don't have that problem. I'm a big Bush supporter but I'm not sure I agree with the original point of this topic (patriot act II). Sadly, there's no real point in debate with you because your mislead effections for GWB cloud the whole situation.

Anyway, I'm not gonna waste my time on you any more. I would advise this to XLT and the rest too, but they are free to debate you untill they are blue in the face.

BTW: I hope Dean gets the nomination, but sadly it looks like he may not by the latest polls. He's losing ground FAST to more credible candidates. It'll be fun to watch if he does make it.

 

If your truly concerned then are you ready to stand tall and say we should undue the new drug benefit program that put us into debt. It wasn’t the tax cuts but new programs like the drug benefits that is estimated to cost well over 400 billion (80% of the deficit)

I do not know if that is true one way or the other, so if you have some kind of proof that would be nice to see.

Couldn’t tell you but I can more easily respect that type of man then one that took advantage of very young girls in the White House and had no problems launching a few missiles to take peoples attention off the fact he was playing and having sex with VERY young girls in the White House…

I cannot respect a man that hates America and its values. I cannot respect a man who is a coward and would back down at the first sign of trouble. I cannot respect a man that feels it is more important to have his own power and leave America defenseless as he tries to gain that power. I cannot respect a man who puts our military in danger with his mouth, and I cannot respect a man that wants to raise everybody’s taxes, the poor, middle class and upper class.

I don’t know but I will predict within the next 18 months we will have his ***…

Please actually read the Patriot Act’s and tell us just where all the bad things are at. The vast majority of the Act is simple nothing more then updating investigation techniques from over 50 years ago.

Second, the reason people are willing to vote President Bush back into office is because President Bush is the only person man enough to actually stand up for America and protect America from a real threat.

The only one that comes close to President Bush in regards to actually being man enough to protect America is Lieberman, hell even Lieberman is for tax cuts as well, but he is still a liberal and thus more of my rights would be taken away as compared to a conservative being in office.

It was actually written by a liberal democrat by the name of Kennedy, just goes to show if President Bush had wanted a truly good educational bill he should have never left it to a liberal to come up with. It is the liberals and democrats who have our education system so screwed up, it is liberals who tell poor inner city kids “tough chit” if you get a good education or not, we (the liberals) are only here to help the “teachers” in the inner city and could give a rat’s *** about you scumbag kids…

Well I am trying to wrap this up and I think you will find some of my reasons in the above mini-novel (LOL). I believe in a lot more of President Bush’s principles then I do with Dean, actually there are no principles I agree with Dean on.

Dean does not care about civil liberties if he had he would not have put his state in danger by neglecting what he was told to due with his nuclear power plants, how to secure them and such as well as to keep his mouth SHUT about it and was clearly warned but gave the public information anyways.

Dean is only for Dean, he is all about power, he has very little concern for his country as a whole, and he hates rich people, middle class people and the poor, he hates the military and loves putting them into danger everyday with his mouth spewing propaganda for the terrorist and giving terrorist a reason to attack and kill American service members in Iraq. He only loves an extremely small percentage of America’s population, which are those who are liberal.

How’s that?

 

I could care less about you either so at least we are on the same page there

I'm not sure where I said "woe is me" but you seem to like to see whatever you want to in other peoples posts. All I said was that you didn't need to explain the terrorist situation to me as I was there and you weren't

The fact is you couldn't care less what I have to say, and I do not agree with what you are saying. There is a difference.

You are a big Bush supporter despite the fact that he signed a series of laws that basically throw out half of the Bill of Rights. That sort of logic is so completely alien to me that I can not comprehend it.

How is that you are "not sure" you agree with the Patriot Act II? It's pretty simple. Do you believe in the Bill of Rights or not?

There is no such word as effections.

I would sincerely appreciate not having to waste my time arguing with you either

-Don

 

What war in Albania? Have you been watching Wag The Dog too much again?

As for thinking the wars were the same: I don't. Clinton had UN support and a clear mission when going into Somalia and Serbia.

No one, least of all me, has tried to say that invading Afghanistan and kicking the Taliban out of power was a bad idea. What we have said, and which some people just refuse to get through their head, is that invading Iraq had nothing to do with the Taliban, and that there were far better targets.

As for the WTC, I was 2 blocks from 7 WTC on my way to a meeting there when the towers were hit the first time.

Wimp? What is wrong with you people. Siwtzerland use to have a strong army. They realized they didn't need it because they handled so much of the worlds money that no one would dare attack them.

So instead of taking them out before they got nukes, we sat back and let them develop them. By your logic this is what was going to happen in Iraq and yet we didn't invade. Why?

Where have you seen "first hand" what it takes to knock out a terrorist group? Where has a terrorist group been defeated?

Great choice. The only way to knock out a terrorist group is to let your country become exactly that which you despise. I'm starting to think it is time to move to Canada.

Uhhh no. The National Guard is only issued Atropine auto-injectors when there is a credible threat of a chemical attack.

Then why didn't we invade North Korea, Pakistan, Libya, and most of Africa?

-Don

 

Now THAT explains a whole bunch.

 

I do think it should be repealed.

Uhhh no. The deficit for 2003 came out to 400 Billion dollars all on it's own. The 400 Billion for the prescription drug program will not come into play for several more years. The majority of the 500 Billion 2004 deficit will be from wreckless spending and loss of tax revenue.

You guys are big fans of a Wag the Dog aren't you? This was a movie you know

a) What girls. It was one girl
b) How is someone over 21 "VERY young?"

I may not agree with what he did, but at least get the facts straight.

Am I to infer that you are are talking about Dean here? If so, I have no idea why you believe some of these things.

Hates America? Hardly. He hates Bush and so do I and half of America. From what he has said in every speach I have read or heard, he seems to care more about this country than any ten people I know.

Coward? The guy has more money than he will ever need. Instead of frittering his life away he worked hard and became a doctor. Despite insult after insult he has stayed in this race.

Military in danger? From who? Our military can destroy any other military in the world. It could do so at half its size. More importantly, as I have already pointed out, a strong military hasn't stopped Israel from living in a police state for years.

Your military can't stop a guy willing to go down to the local home center, pick up some fertilzer, build a bomb and then blow himself up. A someone pointed out in a previous post, this is a new world we live in. A large military is not what we need to fight the threats of tomorrow.

Yes Dean wants to raise taxes. At least he is being honest about it. Remember when Bush senior promised "Read My Lips! No New Taxes?" Then he raised them anyway.

In fact, Dean is primarily concerned with repealing the tax cuts, not raising taxes.

We will not have found Bin Laden 18 years from now.

The FBI is allowed to issue their own subpoenas under the new laws without judicial supervision. They are allowed to hold people with access to a lawyer and without a trial. The FBI is allowed to conduct surveillence without subpoena.

I have read the acts and I have never seen more terrifying legislation come out of Congress in my life.

What real threat? What has Bush accomplished? He captured Hussein. He has not stopped Al Queda.

John Kerry fought in Vietnam. Actually fought. He didn't run and hide in the National Guard. He knows what _real_ war is like. Why is it that you wouldn't rather have a real commander in chief?

Lierberman is a Republican in sheeps clothing and every self respecting Democrat knows it.

What rights do you see liberals taking away from this? This is what I really want to know. You keep talking about liberals taking away your rights and then you _never_ back it up.

Written by a liberal Democrat and yet whole heartedly supported by Bush. Strange. You still haven't answered my question. Why would I support a bill being pitched by the guy who was governor of the state with the nations lowest test scores?

Wow. I have no idea where you get some of these ideas from. You also probably think school vouchers are a good idea.

From what I can tell, you have no principles. You claim to love freedom, and yet you are happy with a man who is trying to eradicate the Bill of Rights. You claim to love the military, and yet you are happy with a Commander in Chief who ran away from the Vietnam war.

First, who the hell is going to attack a power plant in Vermont? Get real.

Second, God forbid a politician tell you what's going on! I appreciate honesty and an open dialogue. I don't appreciate cloak and dagger governing.

Dean comes from a very wealthy family with plenty of power. He really doesn't need the presidency to give him more.

The only one putting our troops in danger is Bush by putting them in Iraq in the first place. How long do you expect our troops to remain there by the way? 2 years? 4 years? A decade?

What's so funny is that the majority of Dean's views are actually conservative. You haven't told me on what issues you disagree with him, however, so I can't tell who you are politically closer to.

-Don

 

Actually it does. I won't vote for a guy who is destroying the Bill of Rights and you will. That sums up our entire debate in one line.

-Don

 

XLT,

Let's start out simple:
Do you think the FBI should be allowed to issue subpoenas without judicial oversight?

If you don't, then that is a principle on which you and Dean agree and you and Bush do not.

If you do believe that the FBI should be allowed to issue subpoenas, then one of us is living in the wrong country.

-Don

 

I'm gone for half a day and sirket's still ragging bush on the bill of rights. GO BACK AND LOOK AT THE EXECUTIVE ORDERS SIGNED INTO LAW BY BILLY CLINTON!! Do so or shut up about the bill of rights.

 

That sort of logic is probably completely alien to him too.

 

great stuff Sirket! Unfortunately, when you try to debate with these guys you might as well be trying to knock down a wall with your head. Their so-called logic is so twisted Mr. Spocks' brain would be reeling. No matter how sensible your arguments are (and they are very sensible) these guys will twist your words, change the subject and spew hateful dittohead rhetoric at you because they have no facts or informed opinion to offer. If you post links that prove them wrong, they'll simply blow it off by saying it's published in a "liberal' or "progressive" paper or website and dismiss it out of hand. You'll never win because they are so blinded by their neo-con ideology and limbaughism they can't see the forest for the trees. Good effort though and your posts are very thoughtful and well written. It seems you another thing over the dittoheads, too. You can spell and use grammer properly which is more than I can say about most of the blindered bunch (excluding 01 and a couple of others)! Lotsa luck and keep the faith

 

Let me try once again as simple as I can with you. Half of your prior response to my last post really made no sense at all but what the hell I’ll give it another try…

When you ask ”Should the FBI be allowed to issue subpoenas without judicial oversight?” do you mean carry out search warrants rather then subpoenas? If you do then I agree that the FBI should not be allowed to carry out search warrants on AMERICAN citizens without prior approval of a judge.

Now if you actually mean subpoenas, then what is so bad about that? They give you a subpoena and you go to court it’s done everyday in America, police do that everyday they pull someone over and write them a ticket for speeding. That is a subpoena to appear in court OR pay the fine as listed.

Last I knew there is no police with a judge as a passenger to oversee the police’s actions of “handing out a subpoena” so yes I think it is fine for the FBI to be allowed to bring people into court and ask them questions. Bring your lawyer if you wish but in any case if you have done nothing wrong and don’t plan on doing anything wrong you have nothing to fear…

You sound more and more like a Dean supporter every day with ”They are destroying half of the Bill of Rights” well then please point out which ones and just how are they doing that?

Man I get sick of these liberal wuss bags that love to run from the bully at school only to get their *** beat twice as bad. Did your father teach you anything about the REAL world and REALITY? It sure don’t sound like it, it sounds like you came from a home based completely on liberal fantasy of “Let’s all just get along and love one another, and nobody will every hurt us”.

Sorry pal that is NOT the real world and that is NOT reality. Dean is a big *** wussy, he has no ***** and is a complete freaking coward and chickenchit. Does that clearly spell it out for you? Dean HATES the military and LOVES to put our military in danger every day in Iraq, I believe Dean loves to see the news when a soldier is killed because it feeds his hate and ego. Dean HATES America and what it stands for which is POWER. Dean would make us very weak and there would be many more terrorists’ attacks here in America if Dean were every President… Why you may ask? Because Dean is such a freaking wussy he would stand there and take it like the coward chickenchit he is…

I know you hate Bush and hey that is your right, you have a right to be dead wrong about what is going on and our military has allowed you that right, our military has guaranteed you that right, and our military will continue to protect that right…

Well at least rest assured that Dean would never become President of the United States because the public will never elect a coward chickenchit that is afraid and will not protect our great country.

I have tried explaining why we are in Iraq and you seem to refuse to believe reality, oh well nothing I can do about that. You continue to live your life of liberal fantasy while others like myself go on in reality. Since over half of America loves the job President Bush has been doing for our country in protecting it as well as bringing back an economy that Clinton left in the dumps (Clinton recession) he will be reelected to a second term as well as carry with him more republicans into the House.

I pray that Dean will be the democratic nominee because that will not only insure a sound victory for President Bush but will also insure more democrats loose seats in both Houses…

2004 is going to be an excellent year my friend…

 

I see you added much info to the discussion. This is obviously over your head.

 

As compared to what you just wrote?