I actually agree with you. I think the war in Iraq is a waste of US lives & funds. Screw Iraq & the middle east. I don't think one grain of sand from the Med to the Persian to the Red Sea to the Indian Ocean is worth one more penny or ounce of energy expended by the US. F the middle east. It would be a damn shame to do that to the personnel who served there (myself included, 8 times I might add) but I think we should start withdrawing at the earlist convienience. I say the US should leave & let the ungratefull animals kill each other while we sit back & watch. Leave with the very clear message that if ANY violence spills out of the middle east, carpet bombing will commence within 24 hours.

KC-10 FE out...

 

well believe it or not, but facts are, that the failed world diplomacy of one bill clinton enboldened many radical muslims after the clinton administrations cut and run policy in somalia after october 1993. 19 army rangers get killed and we have to leave. this was one of the most pivotal momments in world history as far as terrorism goes, and america dropped the ball. osama bin laden and many other high ranking al qaeda leaders were present at the time. from who do you think taught somalies to use RPG's against helicopters was? the mujahadeen that fought the russians through out the 1980's, which osama bin laden was not only a member of, but a rather high ranking leader in, was those people. they found out that if you bloodied america's nose in round one, that we wouldn't come back out for round 2. and these are facts.

who did NOTHING after the USS Cole bombing in yemen? you can NOT just blame Bush for terrorism.

do you think Al Gore would have done better post september 11th had he been elected instead of GW originally? because it was between al gore and george bush in the 2000 elections. hhmmmm think about that.... the guy who invented the internet...... crazy...

 

I don't know how to get out of the mess we're in. But staying there isn't the answer. The place is out of control. The insurgents can't win a ground war against us so they kill innocent women and children. No one is off limits in that country.

The one thing I don't understand is why the civilians, who want peace and freedom in that country, don't arm themselves and fight the insurgents. They can scream and yell at the Americans all they want but pick up a weapon and defend your streets and neighborhoods against the insurgents.

 

We armed and trained the Taliban to fight Russia.

I don't blame Bush for terrorism. I blame him for the war in Iraq that is creating more hatred. All of America believes in the Afghan war. It is the mistake we made in Iraq that has split this country. We all supported Bush for the reasons we went to Iraq but it turned out to be wrong. We need to right the wrong.

9-11 would have happened no matter who was President. I don't blame that day on anyone. No one wanted it to happen and who would have believed it could happen.

I don't blame the bombing of the Marine Barracks in Beirut on Reagan. It was terrorism against the US for sticking our noses in their business. We responded by having the USS NJ hurl 2500 lb rounds into the coutry side at an enemy we couldn't see. That retaliation didn't eliminate anything. It is very hard to fight a war when you can't see who your fighting.

 

well i am glad you just said the only reason why iraq is such a cluster f*ck.

we had insurgents shoot at several of our patrols from 2nd story roof tops with kids in front of them. the bulk of the insurgents, believe it or not, are still foreign fighters who just want to spill more american blood.

and believe it or not, i have actually talked to several people who are even against our actions in afghanistan. and speaking of that country, it has the same problems and same issues as iraq.

not only did the CIA supply weapons and tactics to the mujahadeen, they also supplied iraq in it's fight against iran.

 

Raoul quit polishing your comedian trophy and offer a little help here. It's always me against them.

 

hahah i'm not against you man, i'm just bringing up the other side. actually.. i'm not defending anyone persay. i really honestly, could give a hoot less... politics suck. soulfly was right hahaha

 

All it takes is ONE legit reason to be pissed, not 5.

March 27, 2002, President Bush signed into law the Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act of 2002 (BCRA), Public Law No. 107-155.

This effectively puts a gag order on any and all grassroots PAC's, and forbids even speaking a candidates name within 60 days before a general election and 30 days before a primary election (or runoff). Of course the media and politicians get a free ride.

The PATRIOT Act

1. violates ex post facto

2. Grants the FBI the authority to demand that a business hand over records that may contain private financial or business information that is not pertinent to an ongoing investigation. This includes bank statements, credit card statemetns, ISP ligs, and library checkout data.

3. In May 2004, Professor Steve Kurtz of the University at Buffalo reported his wife's death of heart failure. The associate art professor, who works in the biotechnology sector, was using benign bacterial cultures and biological equipment in his work. Police arriving at the scene found the equipment (which had been displayed in museums and galleries throughout Europe and North America) suspicious and notified the FBI . The next day the FBI, Joint Terrorism Task Force, Department of Homeland Security and numerous other law enforcement agencies arrived in HAZMAT gear and cordoned off the block surrounding Kurtz's house, impounding computers, manuscripts, books, and equipment, and detaining Kurtz without charge for 22 hours; the Erie County Health Department condemned the house as a possible "health risk" while the cultures were analyzed. Although it was determined that nothing in the Kurtz's home posed any health or safety risk, the Justice Department sought charges under Section 175 of the US Biological Weapons Anti-Terrorism Act—a law which was expanded by the USA PATRIOT Act.

4. On October 24, 2005, David Sobel of the Electronic Privacy Information Center (EPIC) obtained FBI Papers under the Freedom of Information Act that revealed that the FBI had been conducting surveillance on citizens for lengthy periods of time without correct paperwork. A total of 13 cases from 2002 to 2004 were referred to the President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board's Intelligence Oversight Board.

PATRIOT II

1. Privacy Invasions. USAPA II dramatically widens the powers of government to invade the privacy of Americans and others living here. This includes:
* Broad new authority to compel information from ISPs, friends, relatives, businesses and others, all without informing you.
* Immunity for businesses that voluntarily turn over your information to law enforcement.
* Extra punishment for use of cryptography-- no connection to terrorism needed.
* Instant police access to your credit reports upon certification that they are sought "in connection with their duties" -- again, with no connection to terrorism needed.
* Relaxed requirement of specificity for warrants for multi-use devices like PDAs and computers with telephonic capabilities.
* DNA collected from all terrorism suspects/DNA database information open to all law enforcement.
* Less judicial oversight of surveillance.

2. More "End Runs" Around Limitations on Surveillance and Information Sharing. Federal, state and local officials can now freely share information, regardless of the original reason for gathering it. This includes information in your credit reports, educational records and visa records. It also includes information obtained by administrative subpoenas of any business, from your ISP to your credit card company to your grocer. It also includes DNA database information and information obtained through the secret court processes of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA). Much of this sharing need not have any relationship to terrorism investigation.

 

3. Gag Orders and Increased Governmental Secrecy. The "sunshine of public review" is a key check on abuses of governmental power. But USAPA II makes it even harder for the public to evaluate what the government is doing with its broad new powers. USAPA II allows gag orders for subpoenas that force third parties to turn over information about their friends, loved ones or customers while making it unlawful for them to tell anyone except their lawyers about the subpoena. In a similar vein, the law creates broad new exceptions to the Freedom of Information Act for terrorism detainee information, prevents the Environmental Protection Agency from warning the public about environmental dangers from chemical releases and reduces the ability of judges to force the government to present its evidence in open court.

4. Expanded Reach of Powers under the Control of Secret Courts. The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) was enacted more than 20 years ago to handle the special problem of non-criminal investigation of foreign intelligence activities in the United States. For this limited purpose, Congress established an unprecedented secret court system. USAPA expanded the reach of FISA and the secret court dramatically, and USAPA II goes even further. Under USAPA II, the secret court will be able to authorize searches of individuals with no connection to foreign governments or even terrorist organizations. It will increase the length of surveillance and decrease court oversight from the already low levels set by USAPA.

5. Not Targeted to Terrorism. As with its predecessor, USAPA II contains many provisions that appear to be nothing more than an opportunistic attempt to increase governmental powers in areas unrelated to terrorism. In other areas, while terrorism is included, the provisions are not limited to terrorism-related investigations. These include government access to credit reports, sentence enhancements for using encryption, and sharing of some FISA-obtained information.

The Military Commissions Act of 2006



Ostensibly to cover the handling, interrogation, and trials of unlawful enemy combatants, members of Al Qaeda, and other terrorists organizations, it in no way shape or form prohibits the same things to be done to a US citizen. In fact a US citizen may be subject to the provisions while awaiting determination of their citizenship. A convenient loophole.

The President gets to determine who the Geneva Convention applies to, what is determined to be torture, and how much torture one may be subject to. Not that I am opposed to certain methods of interrogation but torture has no place.

Then there’s the whole scale lack of oversite that this administration is pushing so hard for.

Now give me 5 LEGITIMATE reasons why I should not be concerned with the loss of Freedom due to the various pieces of legislation previously mentioned.

 

Let me start off by saying there are no facts here just my thoughts, so read if you like.


Interesting thread, I really don't follow politics as much as one should, I do try to research the people I think about voting for. I don't believe any one party has the answers. As for GW I think he is doing a much finer job than people think. As president he gets a lot of blame for ***** he has little or no control over, he is the president but there are also all those people in the house and senate, who get none or very little of the blame.

The deal in Iraq, well it doesn't seem to make sense that we can take a young person and in 8 or 10 weeks have them ready to go off to fight, yet we are still trying to train the people of Iraq 2 years later. I don't think that they will ever enjoy the freedoms we have in the USA, look around, there are so many places that this little bit of banter would not be allowed or be heavily censored. I thank all those that have fought for us to have these rights and those that will continue to do so in the future. Should we leave, I believe we need to start to slowly go and explain that we have helped them to take their country back from the likes of sadam, but it is their country and they need to stert standing up for it and themselves a little more. There are rules for war, which our troops try to abide by but those on the other side don't seem to play by them, we are on their turf, we need to lower ourselves to the way they play if we are to have a chance, either way civillians are going to die.

I do think that our leaders past and present seem to look out for the people in the other countries more than they do for those in this country. The government seems to do many odd things, one of the things after 9-11 was the payments made to the people that died on that day. They (the majority of them) were not any kind of heroes but people just going to work and trying to carry on with there everyday lives. Yet our leader decided to pay outragous sums of money to the families of the people that lost their live, yet when a person on social security dies they hand them what $250.00 not $250,000.00 what made them any different?

As for the people that do not like the way things are in this country they need to get on the next plane with all those hollywood people that were leaving if GW got re-elected and go find a better life somewhere else. I don't think any of the the actors left, not that I would miss them.

 

Nice cut and paste, but the question was "how have any of those affected You???

Don't see anything about that in your script...

 

you still didn't tell me how your freedoms have been specifically encroached upon. you listed laws passed by congress, who were all elected officials by the way, republican and democrat, but you didn't list how each of those affect you. i really don't see how any can affect you. but please do tell. tell me how the US government is victimizing you. please call CNN and tell them ok? we are all the victims of the cruel hand of GB aren't we?

i don't know about you, but i can still walk out my front door and **** in my front yard.

bottom line, if you are a law abiding citizen of the united states, how do the afore mentioned articles affect you? do you have a CIA black van sitting acrossed the street from your house? or unmarked crown vic's tailing you all over the place? are your phones tapped?

 

He may think so, but the man may want to be keeping up on those types.

 

well i like what you had to say, i just wanted to say a few thigns to your comments.

first off, you got to realize who the iraqi's are. they're lazy basically. they have no true work ethic. it's hard to get them to work, but when you can, they do work hard. but you got to baby sit them, otherwise they'll just sit down and start jaw jacking. i honestly think the women work harder than the men. and they've never had anything either, they don't know what it's like. and they're scared of change. 40 years of living in filth and sh*t, i guess you get used to it. thats just from what i've seen first hand.

about the rules of engagement, yet another way politics and lawyers stick their noses somewhere it doesn't need to be. it sucks going out in sector and driving around being a moving target, waiting for that first AK to start cracking, or that RPG to go off, or the IED. the ROE sucks, and if you don't follow it, you get fried big time. trust me on that, we've had some guys that got all tangled up, one being an officer, because of the ROE. it is a way that is supposed to protect us, but it's hard to see the logic when the **** hits the fan. but i carried an ROE card with me everyday, as did many of my buddies, and i still have mine today.

and secondly, after 9/11 you had all your whiz kid lawyers get with the families and sue the govt. for not protecting us. i really don't agree with that, i think it's yet another bullsh*t way a lot of american's try to milk money out of big daddy govt. where is my government cheese truck at?

 

Hey Ben, thanks for your hard work.
and about that cheese, we no doubt sent it to another country.