I understand your points Ron. However, the police did not identify themselves and were plain-clothes and in an unmarked car. I would run from armed men jumping out of a car and so might someone in your family. And to call him a possible subject is also stretching it, he was just a guy on the street. If they could see well enough to say that he resembled a rape suspect (of whom they did not have a picture of at the time), how could they mistake a wallet for a gun? My point is that this happened not because of Diallo, but because of the woefully unqualified police officers. It was a mistake but the officers reacted incorrectly. You are right I might think differently, that is why I am not a cop. I know my limitations and know that I do not have what it takes. Those that take the job should be expected to carry it out correctly and punished or disciplined if they don't. An innocent man is dead, don't forget that, so something HAD to go wrong. If the police were behaving correctly, there would have been no killing that night. I can't believe that you would ask who is more innocent? Diallo was innocent of everything unless that you think running, or looking up and down the streets are a crime that justifies death. He was a victim of bad police work carried out by cowards.

 

Ron Kaltenbach

I will also listen to a cop when he is on duty. Off duty....go away.

A cop with his gun drawn...has my 100% attention...every time! Four cops with their guns drawn..my damn hands are STRAIGHT IN THE AIR and I will be yelling "I surrender...don't go POSTAL on me!"



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2000 F-150 XLT, 4x2, 5.4L Supercab, Styleside, Black with silver two-tone, 3.55, class III towing package with heavy duty cooling package, 4 wheel disk ABS, overhead console, sliding rear window, keyless entry, dark graphite interior, in dash CD, Pendaliner bedliner, K&N air filter, rubberized undercoating, cabin filtration system, Bugflector II, 5W-30 Mobil 1, engine build 10/4/99

 

Foster,
>>>>Race should not be an issue in this case. Not the victims or the officers. The fact is when headlines read "Four white officers gun down unarmed black imigrant" it sells more news than "Four officers shoot unarmed man". Nor should how many rounds that were fired be an issue. If these officers had only fired 10 rounds or 5 rounds and still killed Diallo would that make his death any more acceptable? No. All that should be considered in this case is what actually happened that lead up to the shooting.

>>>>Well I have read up on this case some now. I do not believe that this was a racially motivated shooting. It was in fact a tragic, senseless, accident. Yeah, the officers did screwup, no doubt. But, if they truly felt that Diallo was armed and pulling a weapon should they be convicted of murder? If not what should happen? It's a tough call. No Foster, this doesn't tell me as an officer that I can go out and kill with impunity. I know of no officer that wishes to be involved with a line of duty shooting.....period.

>>>>There were 140 officers that died in the line of duty in 1999, 64 killed feloniously, 175 in 1998, 178 in 1997, and 147 in 1996. Already in 2000 there have been 24 line of duty deaths, 11 of which were felonious. But that doesn't make the national news, because another cop getting killed doesn't rally the citizens into a frenzy. Questioning someones courage about a job that you have no idea what it is like unless you live it is wrong. Any officer that has no fear of getting shot is either stupid or a liar. But does fear of being shot make you a coward?!? Did the eleven officers that have already been murdered in 2000 lack the courage or the skill? I love being a police officer, I take pride in it. Knowing that I make a difference is all that helps you tolerate the downside of the job.

>>>>Foster, yes they made a mistake. Diallo an innocent man died as a result. But Diallo made a mistake by not complying with the officers instructions. A man lost his life in a split second decision, a split second decision where someone had to decide whether the object that a man who had run from them and now came towards them was pulling out a weapon or not. They thought it was, they were wrong. Does that make them cowards? I don't know what the right decision in this case would be, but I don't think a murder conviction on these officers would be right. The sad thing is that what ever the decision that court made it would send waves of reprocussions that are detrimental to the public and police and it will not satisfy everyone. They were aquitted of murder by a jury of their and Diallo's peers. The jury heard both sides and made their decision.

[This message has been edited by JPF1715 (edited 03-01-2000).]

 

The thought of all of you with so much knowledge of guns scares me. The voices in my head are telling me to clean my .357 magnum, drop in the hollow points and practice up!

 

psycho: the fact that the residence was diallo's was unknown to the police, it could've been anyones house.
as far as not speaking english he was from south africa i think. they speak some english over there and his mother had no problem expressing her grief about this in English on the nat'l news.
it's time this country stopped feeling sorry for people who ignore the laws and the authority of our police. instead of everyone jumping on the civil lawsuit bandwagon which only makes police less likely to stop a real criminal later for fear their dept. may be sued or their job lost. we should tell people that the police have the authority to do their job
had this man been a rapist going into someones house and the officers let him go then the residents of the house would be sueing the police. it's no win for them. they did the right thing. even foreigners with no english skills at all understand the word stop. and all countries' law enforcement agencies carry badges and they all mean the same thing when shown ...stop. he didn't do as told and he paid the price. maybe they shot to many rounds but the point is they wouldn't have had to shoot at all if he had listened.

 

dustoff: yep polezei were great, got to see them in action a time or two. yet they were also very helpful and courteous to those around them. very respectable.
i was in baumholder ('86-'88) 4/29 field artillery.
foster: this has nothing to do with being black. do you really think if a white man runs away from the police or reaches behind him for a wallet when told to freeze he wouldn't be shot. welcome to reality. i think it's more likely that it only makes the news when it is a white shooting a black or vice versa. the media seems to enjoy fueling the race thing at every oppurtunity.

 

First of all, very few cops are bad. In LA, they have 20 out of several thousand cops. In New York, I'm sure it's the same ratio. So it is not running rampant. It's just in the media. You must believe everything you read in the newspaper and watch on TV news (TV news is big show business today - sensationalism and shock value mean ratings. Second, Diallo was not shot for running from cops, but for doing something that could quite obviously be taken for going for a gun under the circustances. Third, there is no reason to run from the cops if you have done nothing. If I were to run from a cop, I would expect him to chase. It looks suspicious and he is not doing his job if he does not find out why I am running when I see him, a police officer. You expect the lives of 4 young cops to be ruined because some guy did not react in a proper manner when confronted by cops doing their duty. Yes, he may have been innocent, but he did contribute to his own death.

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2000 F150 SuperCab, Short Bed, 4X4, ORP, 5.4L, Auto Trans, 3.55LS, Captains Chairs with power drivers seat, rear slider, class III towing package, remote entry with alarm and just about everything you can get on this truck. Added a Ford bug deflecter, floor mats and a K&N filter.

 

All I can say is, "If these supposedly highly trained cops who probably went through a series of psychological screenings before being hired and goes through periodic training and testing got spooked by a wallet, what are you guys thinking in wanting to make it easier for ordinary citizens to buy and carry guns?"

You know, 20 out of thousands of bad cops is one thing, but imagine tens of thousands out of millions of untrained Americans.

It just scares the ***** outta me.

btw, one bad cop is one thing, but a whole group of them in one place? Does that strike a chord with anybody else?

 

I personally know 8 police officers city, county, and state. I know them from bowling leagues and I certainly know they are human. All 8 of these guys became officers because of the power and authority that comes with the badge, not to make the world safer. They all have a "I'm superior to you" attitude. All 8 drink heavily while bowling and drive home no doubt with a .2 blood alcohol level. I'm in 3 bowling leagues and I see this every week, these people obviously are 3 sheets to the wind when they leave. They sometimes brag about the arrests they have made, including the DUI arrests. I'm sure that if one of them is pulled over on the way home, no arrest will be made. I've read articles stating that it is a dangerous profession and that alcohol abuse is common. If these officers routinely can drink heavily and drive wouldn't the officers that killed Diallo get their stories in sync even if it means lying and fabrication to save their butts? The President, congressman, senators lie, I believe the officers got their stories together and fabricated an acceptable report. I believe these things because police are human.

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99 F150 XLT Supercab Towing Package 5.4L Auto Two Tone Med Toreador Red/ Silver Power windows, locks, mirrors, driver's seat. Cruise, tilt wheel Alloys, Michelins, ARE topper Superchip / 2000 Chevy Silverado Ext cab 5.3, auto, Tow package, tilt, cruise, power windows,locks,side mirrors, alloy wheels.

 

Psycho,

This is what I would like those kind of police officers to realize..they are only human and it is only a job. Don't let that badge go to your head! I have met some very nice officers..and some serious *ss hole cops (college classes, neighbors,security where I work)

"POWER MAKES YOU DRUNK"

My uncle, a city cop.. almost had his neck broken a few years back in a scuffle with a suspect...and he did somewhat think in this manner that you described. He is still arrogant..but better.

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2000 F-150 XLT, 4x2, 5.4L Supercab, Styleside, Black with silver two-tone, 3.55, class III towing package with heavy duty cooling package, 4 wheel disk ABS, overhead console, sliding rear window, keyless entry, dark graphite interior, in dash CD, Pendaliner bedliner, K&N air filter, rubberized undercoating, cabin filtration system, Bugflector II, 5W-30 Mobil 1, engine build 10/4/99



[This message has been edited by Dustoff (edited 03-02-2000).]

 

Foster,
>>>>The Supreme Court ruling is slightly different than you explained. As given to me at inservice training. I can chase, detain, and pat down someone who runs from me when approached and this occurs in a high crime or drug area for example. Then arrest if it is warranted. Lets be real, 99 times out of 100 when someone runs when confronted or approached by the police they are running to conceal a crime or violation thus the reasoning for this ruling. Lets come back to reality.

>>>>I am the first to jump in line with disappointment and anger over the plunger sodomy and rampart scandals. These do nothing but fuel the fires of the anti-law enforcement culture. Those officers deserve what ever they get and you'll get no arguement from me.

>>>>"There is a culture of lawlessness and silence among most of America's police forces". Foster please let me see some cut in stone facts on this statement, not some stories that someone has told you, not the hype or propaganda spread by the ACLU, but facts that most of the nations Police Departments are corrupt and operating with disreguard for the law. You make it sound like police corruption is wide spread and that there are only a handful of honost police in the nation. Facts are that police agencies are doing their part to police their own. When a bad apple is known, it's cut from the tree as quickly as possible. But you never hear about this because unless laws are broken and prosecuted by public trials for all to see. Yes if they break the law they will be prosecuted by their own department. Let me tell you the ranks of the silent are fewer and fewer and you better believe that if someone is doing wrong most times it's brought to supervisions attention all beit sometimes anonymously. Please don't be spoon fed by the propaganda. I've seen members of my department fired for mistakes that you as a citizen would never even be cited for or think twice about. But see, you never hear those stories.

>>>>Most agencies do in fact hold stringent screening and all train by federally mandated standards. My department has pyschological testing, physical fitness testing, extensive background investigations, you must pass a polygraph test (lie detector), drug screening, physical health screening, and anymore don't hire anyone without a four year degree. You then have to attend a 33 week basic training session where you are extensively trained. Then be evaluated by a training officer for many weeks on the road after completing basic training. You'll find that most of your larger departments go by the same standards.

>>>>Dennis/Foster, you stand on the side of the road or in some inner city street and see someone suddenly reach into their pockets or under a car seat for something in the daylight it'll give you a cold chill, not to mention in the night time(but I guess in your eyes that makes me a coward huh?). I have worked in the projects on drug/violent crime task forces, you turn a corner on some city street and suddenly people start running away. You chase them, some you catch some you don't. You go back to where they ran from and find a stash of drugs and a hidden weapon nearby. That's just the ones that leave it behind. Now see this on nearly an everyday basis (thank god I only did it for a few months). Then think about what you'd feel when someone ran from you, stopped, turned towards you and pulls something from their back after you told them to raise their hands and show em to you. Don't think too long about it cause you only have a second to decide what it is. These officers made a mistake plain and simple. They had probably done this a hundred times before without incident, tragically one of them thought they saw a weapon and the others reacted to his mistake in perception and judgement. If this were a perfect world we'd have robocop out there who'd know in an instant what was going on, who'd never make a mistake, but till then we'll have to depend on plain old foulable people.

>>>>Psyco/Foster, well I might as well and come clean. Yep, all us officers are crooked and corrupt. You obviously have us pegged and figured out, it's useless to try to deceive you any further. We all do it for the glory and the power, nothing more. Who let you in on our little secret? Psyco, let me tell you that I have in fact over the years arrested four officers for DUI, two that were from out of state and two from my home county. One of which was in uniform and on duty. The dumbass reported to work under the influence and wrecked his car. Guess what? One of his fellow officers suspected he was drinking and reported it to their supervisor, they were calling him in to meet them to take action against him when the dumbass wrecked his patrol car. You know what else? All of the officers in my jurisdiction from my agency, other agencies and the one he worked for supported me and stood behind my actions. No, I probably wouldn't write another officer a simple speeding ticket. But I have written them tickets for Reckless Driving for excessive speed and so have many other officers I know. It's just not as commonplace 'cause you don't see other officers doing these things that often despite what you believe. I'm talking about just a handful of instances in a ten year span among several thousand violator contacts. But I guess you probably find that hard to believe and think I'm a liar too. Since you think that we are all alike, crooked, corrupt, and power hungry.

>>>>In closing, I do believe that the NYPD does have problems. But you have to realize they are a department with roughly 40,000 members I believe, there are going to be a few bad apples like the plunger incident who are trash. But, don't throw all of em under one banner. I just feel like these guys in the Diallo incident made a horrible mistake, fearing that their life was in danger, nothing more. The LAPD I believe as a whole is a good department that has suffered because of the actions of a few like the King incident and the Rampart scandal. What would be acceptable to you? Should I wait to be fired upon before I am sure that my life is in danger? I know that seems extreme but if you convict those guys for murder that wouldn't be too far from a stretch of what things could come to. Officers are already paranoid/second guessing about taking or not taking action because of fear of being sued and or fired, then not taking action when they should have because of these fears. When you start to handcuff the police you have crippled the justice system of America.

NO I never said Diallo got what he deserved...far from it. I did say that he made a mistake called noncompliance. The officers mistake was far greater in comparison but would not have happened had he complied. Some kind of action should be taken against them, what I'm not sure, just not a murder conviction. How many website content editors are killed each year because of their jobs? Despite what this post may have sounded like, I do love my job. I chose my profession because I did want to make a difference and to be one of the good guys as did many others....take that with a grain of salt if you like. This may be my longest post ever....sorry about that. I just believe in what I do and feel an attack on my profession is an attack me and all the men and women who have died doing it. So I got a little carried away. I promise not to post anymore on this thread...HONOST

.........later Patrick

P.S. In the short time it took for us to post these messages on this thread from the start to this present post 2/26/00-3/02/00. Three more officers have died by the hand of someone else, but you never saw that in the national news, so yes I am a little sensitive to this.


[This message has been edited by JPF1715 (edited 03-03-2000).]

 

The supreme court just recently ruled that it was constitutional for a police officer to chase and arrest and search someone who runs or otherwise tries to avoid them when the officer has no other reason to persue. And we've gone from that to a killing real fast. Maybe race didn't play a part and I am not blaming the officers as much as the NYPD as a whole. If they acted within their training then their training was subpar. If they are innocent then the NYPD is guilty. There is a culture of lawlessness and silence among some (most) of America's police forces. The rampart scandal in LA and the plunger rape in NY are evidence of this. What kind of sick freak sticks a plunger up somebody's rectum? No one I would want to know and a man whose "protection" we can do with out. Why is it that so many people want to say that Diallo got what he deserved when he did nothing illegal. His mistake was to run, their mistake was to kill. Who is more of a danger? I believe in the Bill of Rights, I believe in this country, and we cannot abandon our values when they become inconvenient. What you seem to advocate is some form of marshall law and a very bad idea. Power corrupts (look at LAPD) and absolute power corrupts absolutely. The police HAVE to play by the rules or no one will respect them and their job will get harder and more dangerous. As for reality, reality is an innocent man is dead. INNOCENT. Running from cops does not give them the right to shoot (they just recently got the official right to persue, when no crime had been witnessed). The reality of the situation is that cops are overworked, underpaid, under trained, under screened, and way too often they are overly aggressive (maybe a result of training). It must be terrible to be an honest cop and have to suffer the fallout from the actions of bad cops, but if they keep their mouths shut when they witness corruption, then they are also corrupt. It is not always easy or safe to do the right thing but if they want to regain public trust, they will have to.

This is my final thought, feel free to respond, but this gets me too worked up to continue.

 

Wild, what scares me is that there are people who advocate arming ordinary citizens. Ordinary people who don't have to go in for periodic training or psychological evaluation. These normal ordinary people are the ones who snap and flip out on us. They're the worst kind because we don't expect them to go postal on us. Thugs, neo *****, etc. are easy to spot and avoid. It's the ordinary normal guy in a business suit who's carrying a gun who had a bad day at the office and was just p.o'd by a waiter in a swanky restaurant or was cut off by a housewife on the freeway that I worry about because I normally wouldn't be avoiding him or the places he frequents.

I also fear the idiots who think you can shoot a gun in the air as a warning shot without realizing that bullet has to come back down and will come down with enough velocity to kill an innocent person. This ain't TV land! I fear the 50 year old who just drank his 15th cup of coffee and has the caffein jitters and thinks he can stop a crook running down a busy city street by shooting the crook in the back without regard for what's around him. I fear the person we all know who's an "ugly" drunk. You know the type. They're great when they're sober, but get a few drinks in them and they turn into monsters.

Geeze. Next time I go to a business meeting, I'll have to wear body armor!

Sure, the Constitution gives us the right to bear arms, but don't forget. When that document was written, the situation was different. We're not fighting a war on our home turf. We've got law enforcement agencies to take care of our safety at home and the military to protect us from others.

Owning a gun is a privilege that must not be taken lightly. It's a responsibility that should not be given to everybody. I'll vote for making weapons harder to get in a heartbeat. If you can jump through the hoops to get a weapon, that's fine. At least you'll have been screened and well documented.

Hell, all weapons should be registered. Forget the argument about invading forces using that information against us. Think about it. If anybody can get into our country and get a foothold to the point that they would be able to go house to house to find weapons, what does that say about our country? Do you really think that would happen? Sure, it could, but it's not likely. Even if it did, would you as a gun owner be sitting at home in the first place? Hell no. You'd be like me, trying to get to safety. We don't crawl under a rock and hide. We find safety and we regroup and we fight back.

Hell, all this NRA drivel just drives me up a wall. I just can't imagine some of my neighbors with guns. It's down right scary.

In case you're all wondering, I own a long rifle, shotgun, and 2 pistols. I'm not against owning guns. I'm just scared ****less thinking that there are people who want to make it easier for people to own them! Gun ownership should not be a right. It should be a privilege!

 

Who makes the determination as to who's okay and who's not? There're a lot of law enforcement that are a helluva lot more dangerous and careless with weapons than average folks, why do they get to carry/use weapons? Sorry, privelege versus right argument is HORSESH**!

[This message has been edited by Ford man (edited 03-03-2000).]

 

I agree..just how do you decide *WHO* can own firearms? Wildchild's last post is on target! The vast majority of people would never want to harm someone with a gun!!!!! Shouldn't those of us with advanced training..like MILITARY training..be exempt also? Just who do you *allow* the so called 'priviledge' of firearm ownership?


JPF1715...many good points!


Here we go again.....

Dennis, you said...
>>>"Sure, the Constitution gives us the right to bear arms, but don't forget. When that document was written, the situation was different. We're not fighting a war on our home turf. We've got law enforcement agencies to take care of our safety at home and the military to protect us from others."

****Typical material anti gun groups try to tell us! COMPLETE B*LLSH*T! LAW ENFORCEMENT CAN'T BE EVERYWHERE ALL OF THE TIME! OUR MILITARY IS VERY WEAK RIGHT NOW (I know this for fact..still formidable..but the weakest it has been in the past 10 years!! A far cry of its strength during Desert Storm!!!).

>>>>"Owning a gun is a privilege that must not be taken lightly."

****I AGREE...most gun owners have a great deal of respect for firearms. Don't think the 60+ Million gun owners are identical to the *NUTS* you are seeing on TV****

>>>"If you can jump through the hoops to get a weapon, that's fine. At least you'll have been screened and well documented..."

****THIS IS ALREADY BEING DONE AND HAS BEEN FOR SEVERAL YEARS! N.I.C.S. was started 11/98 at the Federal level...and the states have been conducting similar background checks years before that. ANY new firearm has been required to be purchased from an FFL holder, who must have a license, pass checks, and are typically inspected by the FEDS!****

>>>>"Hell, all weapons should be registered."

***No way..and <not> going to happen!! Too many *X-military* and private citizens that would NEVER do this. I have to provide a serial number for at least one of the pistols I plan to carry CCW..but no big deal to me. Mandated registration of all firearms or bans on 'all pistols'...is only going to turn this country upside down in a hurry! I think the 'smart gun' technology has good intent..but something I will not own. If I want it to fire 100% of the time...I don't want a computer chip to fail and cost me my life!!***

>>>>>"Think about it. If anybody can get into our country and get a foothold to the point that they would be able to go house to house to find weapons, what does that say about our country? Do you really think that would happen? Sure, it could, but it's not likely. "

****WHY do you think this is? It is because we have one of the highest per capita gun ownership in the world. 60-70 million gun owners...think about it. AUSTRIA is very similar...and requires that every home MUST have a weapon and a supply of ammo..because military service is required for a period of time..and when the member goes in to a 'reserve' status..they keep the weapon. This *just* might be why they have never been invaded...they have always had their population armed (even before the gun was invented) and NO one, not even HILTLER dared invade them. And no, a good deal of gun owners would not run and hide...most are well armed and well trained (and X-military for that matter) China dares not invade us..even with its '20 to 1' population.****

>>>>"I'm just scared ****less thinking that there are people who want to make it easier for people to own them! Gun ownership should not be a right. It should be a privilege! "

****I don't think a single person has ever said they want to make it *easier* to own a gun..but ENOUGH IS ENOUGH...no more bans or gun laws..enough already!! And I *100%* disagree with you...a person without a serious felony conviction should NEVER be restricted from firearm ownership if he/she wants one! No one has the right, in my opinion, to tell me, a peaceful citizen..that I can ONLY protect my wife with a knife or bat..that is not going to happen!!
GUN OWNERSHIP IS NOT AND SHOULD NOT EVER BE A PRIVILEGE!! I don't mind background checks or even the annoying waiting periods..most gun owners don't either! Everyone has to give and take!****

Freedom is not cheap..and we will always have problems. This is the price of freedom.






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2000 F-150 XLT, 4x2, 5.4L Supercab, Styleside, Black with silver two-tone, 3.55, class III towing package with heavy duty cooling package, 4 wheel disk ABS, overhead console, sliding rear window, keyless entry, dark graphite interior, in dash CD, Pendaliner bedliner, K&N air filter, rubberized undercoating, cabin filtration system, Bugflector II, 5W-30 Mobil 1, engine build 10/4/99