I gotta admit that I am a drag racer, but I love street driving and corners. My truck is lowered, and has Hotchkis sway's(I pull the front at the track) I had a Panhard bar on it for about 10k miles, but removed it about 3 weeks ago for going to some 1/4 mile tracks to save some weight, and also the fact it has clearnance issues with the bed due to how lowered I am. I honestly can barelly tell a difference on the street.

I had planned to put it back on, but now I beleive I will just sell it and spend the cash towards a motor.

 

I am well aware of the design issues with the Ruslow bar and in fact was one of the roastees on the c-c site after I stuck my nose in and defended Stan.

Stan has explained that this design is required to be a bolt-in (as opposed to being weld-in). I have no problems with the bar and in fact love mine. I am a big fan of Stan, his accomplishments, and his products (I own the DS loop, PHB, harness bar, QA1's, and Heim joint kit from Ruslow).

I just hate to see the PHB being oversold. There is enough of that going on around here already.

Now I am not discounting what others have experienced, but I would like to make sure that they can feel it when it's gone -- that's a whole other animal that feeling it after it is installed, when the placebo effect is at its maximum.

Maybe they can. I know that it does change the roll center like an anti-roll bar. And the rear just feels "better" with it on than without.

Every truck/setup/driver is different, I suppose. When I installed the Hellwig rear bar (replacing a Hotchkis), I cannot say I noticed that big of a difference. But you did. And I am in no position to discount your experience, as I suspect that you have twice the L track time as I do.

But -- bottom line -- for a daily driver, I would not bother with a PHB on a Lightning. The PHB was made to handle severe cornering forces, not a left on Main Street.

 

I really appreciate everyone's input - this is why I really value this Forum.

Joe

 

Tim,

I hope you and everyone else that reads this thread knows that I (like you) really like Stan and I'm not trying to dis him at all! Stan has helped me several times. His bar is the only design that will bolt on and let you keep the spare. I have one on my truck and I'm sure it helps on the track even though I have not made a single lap without mine installed. I don't understand about roll centers and such but I want to. It may be (if the guy's on CC are correct) that the bar is hurting the cornering of the truck. I'm reading all I can about it and I'm going to build my own bar. Since very few of us take our L's to the track I doubt very many would care about a better bar. They also talk about single shear......what the hell does that mean?

On another note I wonder how much my 58" lift bars hurt the cornering of my truck. I installed them to help me get out of the truns. To put more weight on the rear wheels. I can honestly say I don't think they did a thing to help. I just wonder if they are hurting anything.

J

 

At first I was not going to get in this cc debate.But OH so much for that!The bar is a panhard bar,yes.But it was not designed to act like it[change the roll center]It was designed to keep the rear axle centered under truck.That is it.If you have the lowering springs yes you will not feel the affect of the bar as much.BUT if you lower your truck with shackles then you will most definatly feel the diff on the street.[that is if you drive hard around the corners]I have had a few drag racers ask if it will help them on the track.My answer is always no.Since it is designed to keep the rear axle under the truck in a turn and you are not turning[atleast I hope not]during the run.And they are running a soft sidewall tire the back of the truck is more than likely dancing anyway.
There was a design out that a guy tried to market on here about a 1.5 ago it was a good one but like Shadow said you had to remove the spare because of the support bar and there was welding also involved.Which eliminates the 'bolt on' aspect.
As for the CC guys I say this if they design a better bar great!!Then market it!I have not been there for over a year and after reading about wich bolt thread is stronger [course verse fine] I pretty much came to the conclusion that they are a bunch of want to be engineers or they are engineers with way to much extra time.And no hands on!Atleast some of them[the ones that stir the pot so to speak].
I know I will get blasted for this but that is how I feel and why the bar is what it is.IF you really want to road race and are serious about it.I can build you an IRS unit that will do just about anything you want [camber toe and CASTER are adjustable].How many IRS cars out there that are street driven can adjust caster?Only the very exspensive that I know of and even fewer shops know how to do a set up on it!If you went that route you would not have to debate the panhard issue or the ride height[coil overs] or I need a better diff.[I run a locker]also you can change the rear track on the set up to.I have said enough.Stan

PS before anyone emails on what it would cost figure around 7800.00 for the IRS with NO options!

 

Stan makes some great products that no one else seems to care to make for us. The bar does an excellent job of doing just what he designed it to do(keep the axle centered when under hard turns) If I was more into corners I would keep mine, but around here nobody knows what a corner is......... Onlything to do in my area is straight line; so that's what I am building my truck toward.

 

Very inaccurate statement to make. How do you know what I can and cannot feel in my suspension setup? Could it possibly be that my experience and knowledge have heightened my sensitivity to suspension changes? I have no reason to be pumping up anyone's products for the sake of sales. Quite the contrary I will be the first in line to dispute claims if I find then untrue.

FYI
Locating the PHB on the left or right side has far more to do with the track than the truck.

 

You are absolutely correct. I can't possibly know what you can and can't feel in your truck. Also you are correct that as far as I can tell from what I've read the track is what tells you want side to connect the bar to. I don't know very much about any of this. I do want to learn as much as I can though. I'm sorry if I came off acting like some kind of expert! My intent was to try to keep a man from spending money on something he does not need on the street. I agree with Tim......if I did not track my l I would not have a panhard bar. I would however have stiffer anti sway bars. I still say that the average person on the street DOES NOT need and will not be able to even tell the difference with or without a bar installed. It's not for me to say if you can or can't! Sorry



Stan,

I wish I could go with the IRS. If it was around $3000.00 I would consider it but $7000.00 is not worth it to me. I'm really leaning to go with a Z06 or the new Cobra next year so I can go fast for a little less money. Just the tire bill (even running scuffs) is a bitch running the L at the track. But I'm not telling you anything you don't know better than all of the rest of us.



J

 

Hey shadow don't be sorry .It does not bother me.I make this stuff to help owners and help support my racing.If you can not feel any big difference then ok.For normal street driving you won't.This is all just a side job for me[like about all my jobs are]I make my living turning wrenchs and doing tool and die work[so I can use the cnc machines mainly]The parts end is just a fun end of it.If I could I would go full time but I am not big enough to do that or I should say don't drag race so I sell to the 1%er of the lightning community.sTan

 

After install the PHB I could feel the difference on the street. It was my last addition to the suspension. It was in addition to Hotchkis springs and bars, urethane bushings, Stop-Tech brakes, and a few other tweaks. On installing the PHB I neglected to loctite the frame braket bolts. After about 3 weeks of street driving one of the bolts vibrated loose and dropped out. As soon as it came loose I could feel the difference. While driving I was not sure what had happened for sure but I knew something had broken.

Regarding using the 58" "traction bars". In my opinion on the street or strip they are fine. On the road course they are of little benefit and may hamper things. By design they are intended to keep the rear end from rotating. By doing this they can also inhibit the natual swing arc of the suspension. My bet is that if you are dialed in with your driving and truck (running laps within 1-2 10ths) you will turn better times without the 58" bars.

Now if you delete the leaf springs and another bar to the top of the rearend and add some coilovers (IE 4-link) you will have a decent comprimise between the stock buckboard suspension and a IRS like Stan's.

 

Posted too soon. By no means do I think I know it all either. However I do take exception when someone trys to tell me what I do and don't feel. No harm.

Another area to explore is a "Watts" linkage. Huge improvement over a PHB. It would be a difficult if not impossible installation on the stock suspension. Easy addition on a 4-link. But no "bolt-on" by any stretch.

 

The bolt below is in double shear, meaning that both ends of the bolt are supported, with the stress being applied to the center:

Single shear is where the bolt is only supported on one end (like where the PHB attaches to the diff). Only a single shear point. Just take away one of the two tabs above and you have single shear. The longer the bolt, the more stress is placed on the single shear.

Engineers hate SS. But on a PHB, I don't really care. If it breaks, it's not like you are going to burst into flames or anything.

 

Regarding the left side/right side PHB frame connection, the right rear tire unloads on acceleration, unless the rear suspension is designed to equalize the load on each rear wheel (offset 3 link, for example).

What does this have to do with PHB mounts?

If the frame mount for the PHB is located on the left side (driver's side), the frame mount drops during from body roll during a right hand turn and the axle mount height (right side) doesn't change. As a result, the roll center drops (do the geometry or draw a picture).

If the frame mount for the PHB is located on the right side (passenger side), the frame mount rises during from body roll during a right hand turn and the axle mount height (left side) doesn't change. As a result, the roll center rises (do the geometry or draw a picture).

Thus, on right hand turns, a right side frame mount compounds the problem of less traction at the right rear tire whereas a left side frame mount doesn't compound the problem.

If I was setting up a chassis for road course racing, had no packaging issues, and didn't design and install a rear suspension which equalizes the loads at each rear wheel, I would place the frame mount for the PHB on the left side.

Tim:

Engineers don't hate single shear. It's a buzzword for a connection type that non-engineers without a proper education ignorantly state is "bad". If properly designed, a single shear connection is adequate. The keyword is "designed."

Merry Christmas!

 

Thanks for the education. I love reading and learning about stuff like this. I don't know why but I have way more trouble with right turns than left turns. At TWS only three or four turns are right handers and in two of them I lose the rear bad! Turns three and four I have hell with. Much more than I have on any of the right handers! I wonder if it has anything to do with the panhard bar mount? I'm also considering removing the lift bars. I'm thinking that the lift bars may be doing more harm than good. I think I will look into fabbing a watts link set up. To be able to continue to enjoy track events in the L I need to find a way to control the rear.


J

 

I'd also like to add my thanks for this thread and ask a related question. What is a Mumford link?