the end of canadian drag racing?? please support if you can!!
#16
Originally Posted by Tim Skelton
The Earth is warming, and increased CO2 is causing it. There is no real scientific debate on this point. Whether we are heading for a global disaster as a result, or whether the Earth can self-correct are where the intelligent debate lies.
Fact is, the Earth goes through climate cycles, this is one of them.
Did you know that if we stopped all fossil fuel burning right now, the Earth's CO2 productions would drop by less than 1%? Did you know that when a volcano erupts, it puts out more "pollution" than LA does in a year?
Is man affecting the environment? Sure, but there are other things that I think are having a much greater affect on it than our cars.
Keep in mind that energy is neither created, nor destroyed. This fossil fuel came from energy locked away millions of years ago, when the Earth was believed to be much more tropical than it is now. Keep in mind that the government has to make you afraid of something, otherwise it's useless. By "protecting" us from global warming, they're justifying their existence. They also seem to be "protecting" us from evil steroid using baseball players and NFL sideline voyeurs more than things like recession though...
BTW, something that will really cook your noodle is the fact that while temperatures have gone up on average, rural temperatures have actually fallen. The theory is that most weather stations are near cities, which have air conditioning, energy usage, vehicles, large expanses of pavement and buildings, and are going to be hotter. This is skewing the "global warming" data and makes it look like average temp has gone up.
Originally Posted by Tim Skelton
We are polluting the Earth (the Chinese worst of all). There is no real scientific debate on this point.
Originally Posted by Tim Skelton
Vehicle emission regulations have dramatically improved air quality -- visibly here in Los Angeles. There is no real scientific debate on this point.
Originally Posted by Tim Skelton
When the Republicans concede these points, you know the debate has ended.
Originally Posted by Tim Skelton
But when planes use 98.5% of the pollutant at issue, and the 1.5% user is eliminated first, you have to question the wisdom of the litigation.
Originally Posted by Tim Skelton
Similarly, diesel trucks, which spew huge amounts of pollutants compared to cars, are just now getting cleaned up, yet cars have been emissions controlled for over three decades now.
Originally Posted by Tim Skelton
Why?
Last edited by SRockwood; 02-15-2008 at 12:14 PM.
#17
Planes seem to be the evil culprit today. When we consider the amount of natrual polution the earth produces. I think most would consider the polution the evil airline industry causes as minor.
We have discused the air polution in Los Angeles before. I agree that most days the air is much cleaner. However, I contribute the air quality to the incressing high winds.
Ive lived in southern california for over 40 years. I can rember when we would have one week of santa ana winds a year. Now we enjoy those winds monthly, and sometimes weekly.
Global warming is a fact, i am not debating that one bit. Our air quality efforts will not hurt. If we stop urinating in the ocean while we surf will help aswell.
One thing stikes me funny, when discussing global warming, politics and religion is enivetablly dragged into the discussion. All three topics share other similarities. They are all created by man and used to instill either fear or a sense of purpose. They also do a great job of creating cash flow,,,,goverments love cash flow
We have discused the air polution in Los Angeles before. I agree that most days the air is much cleaner. However, I contribute the air quality to the incressing high winds.
Ive lived in southern california for over 40 years. I can rember when we would have one week of santa ana winds a year. Now we enjoy those winds monthly, and sometimes weekly.
Global warming is a fact, i am not debating that one bit. Our air quality efforts will not hurt. If we stop urinating in the ocean while we surf will help aswell.
One thing stikes me funny, when discussing global warming, politics and religion is enivetablly dragged into the discussion. All three topics share other similarities. They are all created by man and used to instill either fear or a sense of purpose. They also do a great job of creating cash flow,,,,goverments love cash flow
#18
It's true that the atmosphere goes through cycles. And it's equally true that CO2 concentrations are directly linked to those cycles (note that this chart terminates in 1950):
The problem with using that paradigm is that the CO2 has already increased far beyond anything previously known to exist on this planet (at least the "modern" planet with continents peeking out of oceans).
Maybe the scientists are wrong. But betting that they are is a gamble that we just can't take.
Again, the debate should be centered on what to do, and how fast, and at what cost, and what to do about the other countries in the world who are polluting more and more every day, while we are trying to pollute less and less.
For the record, I am pretty much the opposite of a liberal. But I'm not going to stick my head in the sand.
The problem with using that paradigm is that the CO2 has already increased far beyond anything previously known to exist on this planet (at least the "modern" planet with continents peeking out of oceans).
Maybe the scientists are wrong. But betting that they are is a gamble that we just can't take.
Again, the debate should be centered on what to do, and how fast, and at what cost, and what to do about the other countries in the world who are polluting more and more every day, while we are trying to pollute less and less.
For the record, I am pretty much the opposite of a liberal. But I'm not going to stick my head in the sand.
#20
Originally Posted by Tim Skelton
It's true that the atmosphere goes through cycles. And it's equally true that CO2 concentrations are directly linked to those cycles (note that this chart terminates in 1950):
One thing I think is amusing from this data is it's extrapolated and then used as fact. The problem I have is they're basing a lot of this on ice cores. Unfortunately, 400,000 year old ice cores are extremely rare and are found in very few places. This is nowhere near large enough a cross section to be anything other than theory.
Originally Posted by Tim Skelton
The problem with using that paradigm is that the CO2 has already increased far beyond anything previously known to exist on this planet (at least the "modern" planet with continents peeking out of oceans).
Maybe the scientists are wrong. But betting that they are is a gamble that we just can't take.
Maybe the scientists are wrong. But betting that they are is a gamble that we just can't take.
Scientists are wrong all the time. You very rarely see the publishing scientist publish another paper on how wrong he is. That's usually left to someone else. The world was once believed to be flat, you know...
Originally Posted by Tim Skelton
Again, the debate should be centered on what to do, and how fast, and at what cost, and what to do about the other countries in the world who are polluting more and more every day, while we are trying to pollute less and less.
Originally Posted by Tim Skelton
For the record, I am pretty much the opposite of a liberal. But I'm not going to stick my head in the sand.
Originally Posted by lightninquick
Global warming is a fact, i am not debating that one bit. Our air quality efforts will not hurt. If we stop urinating in the ocean while we surf will help aswell.
#22
Its always fun to see when scientists reasoning for their theories gets proven false, they just find another fact that they believe proves their theory. Totally disregarding anything else. Right now their whole argument is based on Venus and Mercury. Mercury is the closest planet to the sun and venus is the second, yet venus is the hottest planet in the solar system. Why? because it has a c02 atmosphere. So therefore, if we increase co2 then we will get hotter because of trapping in heat better. Of course, they dont mention that Mercury doesnt have an atmosphere at all, so it would be a lot easier for the planet to get rid of heat from the sun. Plus Mercury doesnt rotate. Last time I recall, there werent any cars on Venus....
Fact is, we arent bringing co2 to the Earth from outside sources, we are using what has already been in existence on the Earth since the big bang. Matter always recycles itself. We arent creating c02 where there hasnt been any. Global warming could be happening, but its still up in the air whether man is causing it (probably not) and its up in the air whether we could do anything about it even if we tried. Anyway, I dont know why I even bother getting into these discussions, real proof wont actually exist until we are all dead and buried. Santa Ana winds Rick? That is your proof for global warming?
Fact is, we arent bringing co2 to the Earth from outside sources, we are using what has already been in existence on the Earth since the big bang. Matter always recycles itself. We arent creating c02 where there hasnt been any. Global warming could be happening, but its still up in the air whether man is causing it (probably not) and its up in the air whether we could do anything about it even if we tried. Anyway, I dont know why I even bother getting into these discussions, real proof wont actually exist until we are all dead and buried. Santa Ana winds Rick? That is your proof for global warming?
#24
Originally Posted by Lightclone
. . . Right now their whole argument is based on Venus and Mercury. . . .
Originally Posted by Lightclone
. . . Fact is, we arent bringing co2 to the Earth from outside sources, we are using what has already been in existence on the Earth since the big bang. Matter always recycles itself. We arent creating C02 where there hasnt been any. . .
We ARE creating CO2 in the sense that we are taking carbon atoms and oxygen atoms and combining them. Yes, the carbon has always been there (inside the earth), and yes the oxygen has always been there, but the resultant CO2 has not.
#25
Originally Posted by Lightclone
Fact is, We arent creating c02 where there hasnt been any. :
CO2 is a chemical compound that is produced in the reaction directly caused by us (burning things)
#26
Originally Posted by Tim Skelton
Originally Posted by Tim Skelton
We ARE creating CO2 in the sense that we are taking carbon atoms and oxygen atoms and combining them. Yes, the carbon has always been there (inside the earth), and yes the oxygen has always been there, but the resultant CO2 has not.
However, compared to what the Earth naturally creates (living beings, volcanoes, etc), fossil fuel use is just a drop in the bucket.
#27
#29
Originally Posted by Lightclone
Its always fun to see when scientists reasoning for their theories gets proven false, they just find another fact that they believe proves their theory. Totally disregarding anything else. Right now their whole argument is based on Venus and Mercury. Mercury is the closest planet to the sun and venus is the second, yet venus is the hottest planet in the solar system. Why? because it has a c02 atmosphere. So therefore, if we increase co2 then we will get hotter because of trapping in heat better. Of course, they dont mention that Mercury doesnt have an atmosphere at all, so it would be a lot easier for the planet to get rid of heat from the sun. Plus Mercury doesnt rotate. Last time I recall, there werent any cars on Venus....
Fact is, we arent bringing co2 to the Earth from outside sources, we are using what has already been in existence on the Earth since the big bang. Matter always recycles itself. We arent creating c02 where there hasnt been any. Global warming could be happening, but its still up in the air whether man is causing it (probably not) and its up in the air whether we could do anything about it even if we tried. Anyway, I dont know why I even bother getting into these discussions, real proof wont actually exist until we are all dead and buried. Santa Ana winds Rick? That is your proof for global warming?
Fact is, we arent bringing co2 to the Earth from outside sources, we are using what has already been in existence on the Earth since the big bang. Matter always recycles itself. We arent creating c02 where there hasnt been any. Global warming could be happening, but its still up in the air whether man is causing it (probably not) and its up in the air whether we could do anything about it even if we tried. Anyway, I dont know why I even bother getting into these discussions, real proof wont actually exist until we are all dead and buried. Santa Ana winds Rick? That is your proof for global warming?
holy chit that was great!!!! that was like 3 steps over almost everyones head