Installed JL ram air today, but no increase in boost.
#32
05-31-2001 | 07:28 AM
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 139
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From: Portland,Oregon,United states
Spiro.... 32.05 BP !!! dam I envy you guys. Portland never gets past 31.
I think the BP pressure probably affects both normally aspirated, and supercharged vehicles the same. However it's just more noticeable if you have alot of power to begin with.
Example.... if you have 400 HP and it's down 5% on power, thats 20 HP - very noticeable. And if you have only 200 HP and it's down 5% on power, thats only 10 HP -not as noticeable
I think the BP pressure probably affects both normally aspirated, and supercharged vehicles the same. However it's just more noticeable if you have alot of power to begin with.
Example.... if you have 400 HP and it's down 5% on power, thats 20 HP - very noticeable. And if you have only 200 HP and it's down 5% on power, thats only 10 HP -not as noticeable
#33
05-31-2001 | 07:59 AM
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 630
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From: Mid West
Great explanation Silver-Y2K-SVT. 
There is on thing that many of us are forgetting when they design or install a new air filter setup. These trucks are not only sensitive to the presure/vacume of the air entering the blower, but also the temp of the air. Most of the instalations that I saw at WFC4 were taking in air that was preheated by the radiator. Most of the guarded air filters relied on the stock hole in the fender with the 200mph air flow problem that Silver-Y2K-SVT talked about.
Bottom line we need to get Cool-High Pressure air from an air intake cut somehow thru the grill or the hood and then somehow push this air thru the largest area airfilter, MAF and intake tubing we can find. RTKILLA has a interesting setup but I would think it would be a pain to own when mud and rain are taken into the mix of things to deal with.
I also loved the Idea of icing down the water that is going to the intercooler that I think JL supplied to Spiro. The thing that we forgot was a lesson that grand-ma tryied to teach us when she mad ice cream. She always put salt into the ice water to make the water colder. I bet with little resurch, we could find a combination of dry ice and antifreze or whatever, that can realy get the pressureized air temp way down there.
Hope this helps.
------------------
Andy Whittle
White 2000
#2482 of 4966
Built 4/27/00
My Autocross car
[This message has been edited by awhittle (edited 05-31-2001).]
There is on thing that many of us are forgetting when they design or install a new air filter setup. These trucks are not only sensitive to the presure/vacume of the air entering the blower, but also the temp of the air. Most of the instalations that I saw at WFC4 were taking in air that was preheated by the radiator. Most of the guarded air filters relied on the stock hole in the fender with the 200mph air flow problem that Silver-Y2K-SVT talked about. Bottom line we need to get Cool-High Pressure air from an air intake cut somehow thru the grill or the hood and then somehow push this air thru the largest area airfilter, MAF and intake tubing we can find. RTKILLA has a interesting setup but I would think it would be a pain to own when mud and rain are taken into the mix of things to deal with.
I also loved the Idea of icing down the water that is going to the intercooler that I think JL supplied to Spiro. The thing that we forgot was a lesson that grand-ma tryied to teach us when she mad ice cream. She always put salt into the ice water to make the water colder. I bet with little resurch, we could find a combination of dry ice and antifreze or whatever, that can realy get the pressureized air temp way down there.
Hope this helps.
------------------
Andy Whittle
White 2000
#2482 of 4966
Built 4/27/00
My Autocross car
[This message has been edited by awhittle (edited 05-31-2001).]
#34
05-31-2001 | 08:02 AM
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 2,141
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From: lancaster,pa. usa
B.P. is a HUGE! factory with these trucks! spiro is correct when we see 31-32 bp thats when we get excited! and head to cecil county. i'm still looking for those 11's without nos..but i will need cool air and a high bp like 31..1 more thing to remember "ram air" "Cold air induction kits" has been around for along time! and they do work!So lets get out there and EAT them cheby's up! 
and if your only seeing 8.5 lbs. of boost then something else is wrong.. JL
------------------
93 cobra 10.90@127.00
99 lightning (black)
E.T. 12.06
best mph 112
60 ft. 1.65
(All Throttle No Bottle!)
JL ram air
JL Powercooler
2# pulley
Level 10 shift kit
PI Converter!
DiabloSport Dist.!
(KEEP IT BETWEEN THE LINES!)
Proud!F-150 Supporting Vendor
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
JohnnyLightning Performance
E-mail: jlightningracing@cs.com
JohnnyLightningWebpage
and if your only seeing 8.5 lbs. of boost then something else is wrong.. JL------------------
93 cobra 10.90@127.00
99 lightning (black)
E.T. 12.06
best mph 112
60 ft. 1.65
(All Throttle No Bottle!)
JL ram air
JL Powercooler
2# pulley
Level 10 shift kit
PI Converter!
DiabloSport Dist.!
(KEEP IT BETWEEN THE LINES!)
Proud!F-150 Supporting Vendor
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
JohnnyLightning Performance
E-mail: jlightningracing@cs.com
JohnnyLightningWebpage
#35
05-31-2001 | 08:42 AM
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 648
Likes: 0
From: Milford, Ohio USA
Meiwah':
Perhaps you didn't thoroughly understand my posts. ANYTHING you do to reduce intake restriction upstream of the blower will return higher boost and more power. I think that most aftermarket conical filters will be less restrictive than the stock airbox. With a conical, you give some of the power back by ingesting hot engine bay air (as opposed to cooler fender well air), so the JL "ram air" system is probably a good idea also for bringing cooler air to the filter. It won't produce any overpressure, but it should bathe the filter in cooler air, especially when it is colder out.
2002':
I have also grown up with the homily that supercharged vehicles are less sensitive to altitude (absolute baro pressure/oxygen content) than their naturally aspirated kin. After driving/racing/analyzing the Lightning over the past year (exactly one year to the day!), I have NO reason to believe this is true. Low barometric pressure kicks the crap out of the 'Bolt, at apparently the same rate as other vehicles. Too bad, though. Our friends in Denver could be beating the bejeezus out of every Viper on the street, if only it were true.
'Whittle:
You're right on the money.
Gang:
I'm still working on building an optimized, true, sealed ram-air system. This thing is designed from the ground up to produce maximum power using the stock airbox and flat filter. I have all of the materials, and my fabricator is working (S-L-O-W-L-Y) on it right now. The plan also includes a vacuum gauge in the intake tract (likely in the upper chamber of the airbox) so I can generate some relevant data. I've done all of the calculations, and it looks very intriguing, especially at high vehicle speeds...
Perhaps you didn't thoroughly understand my posts. ANYTHING you do to reduce intake restriction upstream of the blower will return higher boost and more power. I think that most aftermarket conical filters will be less restrictive than the stock airbox. With a conical, you give some of the power back by ingesting hot engine bay air (as opposed to cooler fender well air), so the JL "ram air" system is probably a good idea also for bringing cooler air to the filter. It won't produce any overpressure, but it should bathe the filter in cooler air, especially when it is colder out.
2002':
I have also grown up with the homily that supercharged vehicles are less sensitive to altitude (absolute baro pressure/oxygen content) than their naturally aspirated kin. After driving/racing/analyzing the Lightning over the past year (exactly one year to the day!), I have NO reason to believe this is true. Low barometric pressure kicks the crap out of the 'Bolt, at apparently the same rate as other vehicles. Too bad, though. Our friends in Denver could be beating the bejeezus out of every Viper on the street, if only it were true.
'Whittle:
You're right on the money.
Gang:
I'm still working on building an optimized, true, sealed ram-air system. This thing is designed from the ground up to produce maximum power using the stock airbox and flat filter. I have all of the materials, and my fabricator is working (S-L-O-W-L-Y) on it right now. The plan also includes a vacuum gauge in the intake tract (likely in the upper chamber of the airbox) so I can generate some relevant data. I've done all of the calculations, and it looks very intriguing, especially at high vehicle speeds...
#36
05-31-2001 | 09:30 AM
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 4,565
Likes: 0
From: NJ
Silver-Y2K-SVT - so your saying that in order for ram air to be most effective it should be running into a sealed air filter box. Then why not just run a ram air setup into the factory box? Thats more sealed then just a filter with the ram air pointing to it, plus it retains the stock look.
#37
05-31-2001 | 11:14 AM
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Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 648
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From: Milford, Ohio USA
'Oblivious:
You got it, Chief! That's EXACTLY the ticket, but you'll find the design aspects to be pretty tough once you start digging into the problem.
For example, you really need a MINIMUM 5-inch sealed duct to the airbox to get an appreciable ram effect at reasonable speeds (above 60 MPH with a 5-inch duct). This is great, except that the necessary under-hood real estate is unavailable. Additionally, the floor of the stock airbox is not flat and very difficult to attach a 5-inch-plus flange (gasketed, sealed) to.
I'm looking at a 4-inch duct. This is still a bit tricky to properly engineer and fish through the engine bay. Anyway, this arrangement is theoretically not capable of generating an overpressure in the lower airbox chamber at redline until around 93 MPH, so you're actually better to ALSO leave the stock inlet operative (unless you plan on running at Bonneville all of the time). At 2700 RPM, you get an overpressure above 60 MPH.
Basically, I plan to use a 4-inch sealed duct in concert with the stock airbox hole to just give lower intake restriction and some ram assist as speeds rise. At 93 MPH, the lower chamber of the airbox will be "pressurized" (actually, vacuum canceled) to atmospheric pressure, and at higher speeds there will actually be flow OUT through the stock inlet hole (this assumes no pressurization in the fender well). It might be possible to construct a "flapper" one-way valve for the stock inlet hole to allow for pressurization of the airbox at high speeds.
In addition to the "part-pressurization" (vacuum cancellation), recognize also that this system gives the benefits of cold-air induction as well (not much better than the stock airbox hole, but better than a conical). The reduction in intake restriction, even with no forward movement, is considerable compared to the stock inlet hole. A 4-inch duct has considerably more cross-sectional area than the tiny, stock trapezoidal inlet hole. Note also that the stock inlet is sharp-edged, which induces a lot of flow loss.
It takes a tremendous vacuum level (pressure drop from the fender well to the airbox) to "suck" 750 CFM through the little, poorly-shaped, sharp-edged stock inlet hole. I'm not sure how much vacuum at this point, but I'll measure and report as soon as my induction system in completed and installed.
Incidentally, a sealed ram-air induction system with a 5-inch smooth duct is theoretically capable of producing a 4 PSI overpressure in the lower airbox chamber at 160 MPH. Assuming 1 PSI (3 inches Hg) of vacuum through the MAF and throttle body (restriction), this could theoretically translate to 23 PSI of boost relative to atmospheric at redline. Ruslow, are you listening?
This discussion assumes a lot, but the science is sound. You mileage may vary.
If you look at the inherent restriction of the aftermarket conical filters relative to the stock, flat-panel piece, there probably isn't a big difference. I base this on the fact that, at a glance, the total flow areas look about equal. In fact, the smaller conical units MIGHT have an even smaller area. Perhaps the conicals are less restrictive per unit area, but this would indicate to me lower particulate removal efficiency (not so good). I think that the power gains seen with the aftermarket units (and the gains are certainly real, and in most cases considerable) come from jettisoning the stock airbox and its inherent restriction (a function of the inlet hole).
I feel that the best possible intake configuration is the stock airbox (appearance, stealth, no ingestion of hot engine bay air), modified with a properly-designed large-diameter sealed ram-air duct/scoop arrangement. By large-diameter, I'm thinking a single 6-inch duct (impossible?) or two 4-inch ducts (difficult, but maybe possible). No aftermarket conical could approach this in terms of performance.
You got it, Chief! That's EXACTLY the ticket, but you'll find the design aspects to be pretty tough once you start digging into the problem.
For example, you really need a MINIMUM 5-inch sealed duct to the airbox to get an appreciable ram effect at reasonable speeds (above 60 MPH with a 5-inch duct). This is great, except that the necessary under-hood real estate is unavailable. Additionally, the floor of the stock airbox is not flat and very difficult to attach a 5-inch-plus flange (gasketed, sealed) to.
I'm looking at a 4-inch duct. This is still a bit tricky to properly engineer and fish through the engine bay. Anyway, this arrangement is theoretically not capable of generating an overpressure in the lower airbox chamber at redline until around 93 MPH, so you're actually better to ALSO leave the stock inlet operative (unless you plan on running at Bonneville all of the time). At 2700 RPM, you get an overpressure above 60 MPH.
Basically, I plan to use a 4-inch sealed duct in concert with the stock airbox hole to just give lower intake restriction and some ram assist as speeds rise. At 93 MPH, the lower chamber of the airbox will be "pressurized" (actually, vacuum canceled) to atmospheric pressure, and at higher speeds there will actually be flow OUT through the stock inlet hole (this assumes no pressurization in the fender well). It might be possible to construct a "flapper" one-way valve for the stock inlet hole to allow for pressurization of the airbox at high speeds.
In addition to the "part-pressurization" (vacuum cancellation), recognize also that this system gives the benefits of cold-air induction as well (not much better than the stock airbox hole, but better than a conical). The reduction in intake restriction, even with no forward movement, is considerable compared to the stock inlet hole. A 4-inch duct has considerably more cross-sectional area than the tiny, stock trapezoidal inlet hole. Note also that the stock inlet is sharp-edged, which induces a lot of flow loss.
It takes a tremendous vacuum level (pressure drop from the fender well to the airbox) to "suck" 750 CFM through the little, poorly-shaped, sharp-edged stock inlet hole. I'm not sure how much vacuum at this point, but I'll measure and report as soon as my induction system in completed and installed.
Incidentally, a sealed ram-air induction system with a 5-inch smooth duct is theoretically capable of producing a 4 PSI overpressure in the lower airbox chamber at 160 MPH. Assuming 1 PSI (3 inches Hg) of vacuum through the MAF and throttle body (restriction), this could theoretically translate to 23 PSI of boost relative to atmospheric at redline. Ruslow, are you listening?
This discussion assumes a lot, but the science is sound. You mileage may vary.
If you look at the inherent restriction of the aftermarket conical filters relative to the stock, flat-panel piece, there probably isn't a big difference. I base this on the fact that, at a glance, the total flow areas look about equal. In fact, the smaller conical units MIGHT have an even smaller area. Perhaps the conicals are less restrictive per unit area, but this would indicate to me lower particulate removal efficiency (not so good). I think that the power gains seen with the aftermarket units (and the gains are certainly real, and in most cases considerable) come from jettisoning the stock airbox and its inherent restriction (a function of the inlet hole).
I feel that the best possible intake configuration is the stock airbox (appearance, stealth, no ingestion of hot engine bay air), modified with a properly-designed large-diameter sealed ram-air duct/scoop arrangement. By large-diameter, I'm thinking a single 6-inch duct (impossible?) or two 4-inch ducts (difficult, but maybe possible). No aftermarket conical could approach this in terms of performance.
#38
05-31-2001 | 01:10 PM
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 630
Likes: 0
From: Mid West
#39
05-31-2001 | 01:27 PM
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 458
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From: HAMPTON,ILL, ROCK ISLAND
Just a bit curious here?Johnny I saw your truck at WFC,you had the open filter on, but the rest of the ram air WASN"T hooked up,no sock, not connected to the hose running up the fender well.So I guess if it's a must why didn't you use it during your runs???I have your ram air kit on my truck,it's a good system,but actual hp gains,or boost? All I know is if you wanna get boost get a pulley,and the ram air kit does improve fuel economy and gives a better shot of air,but I'd be much more convinced if you had been using it as well.
#40
05-31-2001 | 03:18 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,151
Likes: 0
From: President HALO
Ultimate Ram Air System into a sealed box with only outlet being into the SC filter and a 6" square hole in the hood, with no boost increase. Only effected my 1/4 mile times by .11
------------------
"1 Bad Tk"
1999 Red Lightning
"Tweeked To The Max"
<A HREF="http://www.haloclub.com" TARGET=_blank>
</A>
"See Ya At The Tree"
Yahoo Messenger: onebadtk
Team PSP South #19
T/T #32
------------------
"1 Bad Tk"
1999 Red Lightning
"Tweeked To The Max"
<A HREF="http://www.haloclub.com" TARGET=_blank>
</A>"See Ya At The Tree"
Yahoo Messenger: onebadtk
Team PSP South #19
T/T #32
#42
05-31-2001 | 03:38 PM
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,151
Likes: 0
From: President HALO
#43
05-31-2001 | 04:01 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,467
Likes: 0
From: La Habra, CA
Silver-y2k-svt,
You are correct in assuming that altitude (air density) will affect the blown motors just as much as normally aspirated.
I made 377 RWHP at sea level with my 00. When raced at 3000' above sea level, that translated into a best of 13.92 @ 97 MPH. In sea level conditions, the truck should run 13.50's I would guess.
You would need to pulley up to get back some of the performance loss.
A good ram air system should have a large opening with a smooth surface inside the tubing. The ideal system would be a direct line of sight into the MAF, but this is probably not possible due to packaging constraints.
A while back, I was involved in a Bonneville racing project with Gale Banks. We fed a 1500 Hp, twin turbo, big block Chevy with (2) 8" x 3" openings. Ihe tubing was 5" dia and went directly into the turbo inlets. The inlet pressure at full boost went from vacuum to pressure at about 150 mph. All it takes is efficiency in the inlet system, and it will work very well.
I've been trying to figure a way to feed my custom airbox directly from the grill area. It may take some exotic ducting to do so, but I think it will be very effective.
I guess it's time to warm up the TIG welder.
I'm a frustrated seat-of-the-pants engineer/fabricator.
------------------
Red 00"
Pro-M mass air
Swanson chip
Aluminum driveshaft
Jay Lincoln homemade
traction bars
*******'s bed cover
Wet Okoles
Lightning floor mats
Email: jaylincolncobra@aol.com
"UNLESS YOU'RE THE LEAD DOG, THE VIEW NEVER CHANGES"
http://www.zing.com/album/?id=4292716723
You are correct in assuming that altitude (air density) will affect the blown motors just as much as normally aspirated.
I made 377 RWHP at sea level with my 00. When raced at 3000' above sea level, that translated into a best of 13.92 @ 97 MPH. In sea level conditions, the truck should run 13.50's I would guess.
You would need to pulley up to get back some of the performance loss.
A good ram air system should have a large opening with a smooth surface inside the tubing. The ideal system would be a direct line of sight into the MAF, but this is probably not possible due to packaging constraints.
A while back, I was involved in a Bonneville racing project with Gale Banks. We fed a 1500 Hp, twin turbo, big block Chevy with (2) 8" x 3" openings. Ihe tubing was 5" dia and went directly into the turbo inlets. The inlet pressure at full boost went from vacuum to pressure at about 150 mph. All it takes is efficiency in the inlet system, and it will work very well.
I've been trying to figure a way to feed my custom airbox directly from the grill area. It may take some exotic ducting to do so, but I think it will be very effective.
I guess it's time to warm up the TIG welder.
I'm a frustrated seat-of-the-pants engineer/fabricator.
------------------
Red 00"
Pro-M mass air
Swanson chip
Aluminum driveshaft
Jay Lincoln homemade
traction bars
*******'s bed cover
Wet Okoles
Lightning floor mats
Email: jaylincolncobra@aol.com
"UNLESS YOU'RE THE LEAD DOG, THE VIEW NEVER CHANGES"
http://www.zing.com/album/?id=4292716723
#44
05-31-2001 | 07:11 PM
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 2,141
Likes: 0
From: lancaster,pa. usa
J man: you must be mistaken i ALWAYS! use the ram air set-up. i did however remove the sock to allow as much air as possible! but i don't believe it helped any so i will leave the sock on from now on..JL
------------------
93 cobra 10.90@127.00
99 lightning (black)
E.T. 12.06
best mph 112
60 ft. 1.65
(All Throttle No Bottle!)
JL ram air
JL Powercooler
2# pulley
Level 10 shift kit
PI Converter!
DiabloSport Dist.!
(KEEP IT BETWEEN THE LINES!)
Proud!F-150 Supporting Vendor
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
JohnnyLightning Performance
E-mail: jlightningracing@cs.com
JohnnyLightningWebpage
------------------
93 cobra 10.90@127.00
99 lightning (black)
E.T. 12.06
best mph 112
60 ft. 1.65
(All Throttle No Bottle!)
JL ram air
JL Powercooler
2# pulley
Level 10 shift kit
PI Converter!
DiabloSport Dist.!
(KEEP IT BETWEEN THE LINES!)
Proud!F-150 Supporting Vendor
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
JohnnyLightning Performance
E-mail: jlightningracing@cs.com
JohnnyLightningWebpage
