4.30 gears and Powertrax installed
#16
03-18-2002, 07:30 PM
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WLF
Re/ your comment about outside wheel disengaging and inside wheel driving, that's why I suggest you take extreme care in turns on wet roads with the Powertrax. You have one driving wheel, and you're knowledgeable enough to know a non-driving wheel will not keep you straight but will slide sideways, so if you over-torque that inside wheel you ARE doing a 180, no way around it. That is really why I have held back on the rear for the Powertrax, as every once in awhile some third-party needs to drive my truck, from my uncle, to my father, and yes when emergency calls for it my girlfriend (why did I teach her to drive stick I now ask myself). People who have no familiarity with limited slips and lockers haven't a clue what you mean when you say, "The rear end can get away from you, don't torque it out around a turn." They're like, "Errr...Yeah, over-torque..sure.."
Now at least you know that with your usual driving habits you over-torque your drive wheel with a locker installed. Imagine what would happen on a light rainy day when the oil comes to the surface of the road.....wheeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!! Just make sure if you have a buddy in the cab with you when you spin out don't even flinch, straighten out and keep driving, and say, "Never seen a truck do that, eh?....Want see what else she can do?"
Re/ your comment about outside wheel disengaging and inside wheel driving, that's why I suggest you take extreme care in turns on wet roads with the Powertrax. You have one driving wheel, and you're knowledgeable enough to know a non-driving wheel will not keep you straight but will slide sideways, so if you over-torque that inside wheel you ARE doing a 180, no way around it. That is really why I have held back on the rear for the Powertrax, as every once in awhile some third-party needs to drive my truck, from my uncle, to my father, and yes when emergency calls for it my girlfriend (why did I teach her to drive stick I now ask myself). People who have no familiarity with limited slips and lockers haven't a clue what you mean when you say, "The rear end can get away from you, don't torque it out around a turn." They're like, "Errr...Yeah, over-torque..sure.."
Now at least you know that with your usual driving habits you over-torque your drive wheel with a locker installed. Imagine what would happen on a light rainy day when the oil comes to the surface of the road.....wheeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!! Just make sure if you have a buddy in the cab with you when you spin out don't even flinch, straighten out and keep driving, and say, "Never seen a truck do that, eh?....Want see what else she can do?"
#17
03-18-2002, 07:33 PM
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I have the Auburn Pro in the rear of my truck. Got to do a lot of rain driving last week. I can say for 100% that it isn't harder to drive than my truck was with the stock LS. Now once the tires break loose completely (I mean doing something stupid, not just pulling off in the rain) it wants to come around easier, but you really have to try hard to get that to happen.
#18
03-18-2002, 09:24 PM
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jayntguru
I will make one comment in that WLF has a true locker, so what you experience throughout a turn and what he will experience are two very different things. Your Auburn is no different than any clutch disc limited slip in that designed torque bias is not achieved until sufficient power is supplied to the differential, and until that time the pre-load spring is what will determine torque bias. When going around a turn, even with some power applied your Auburn is acting much like an open differential. Therefore, you have torque applied by both wheels (although the inside is more likely to spin-up). If your inside wheel does spin-up, there is a likelihood that the other driving wheel will prevent your spin. WLF does not have that luxury.
My suggestion to watch turns isn't based on the probability that he will spin-out, as it is unlikely. My suggestion is based on the fact that IF he does spin-out the inside tire he will do a 180, as there is no other drive wheel to assist him. You never know when and where oil will surface. People with open diffs and limited slips have a safety cushion, whereas people with lockers don't.
I will make one comment in that WLF has a true locker, so what you experience throughout a turn and what he will experience are two very different things. Your Auburn is no different than any clutch disc limited slip in that designed torque bias is not achieved until sufficient power is supplied to the differential, and until that time the pre-load spring is what will determine torque bias. When going around a turn, even with some power applied your Auburn is acting much like an open differential. Therefore, you have torque applied by both wheels (although the inside is more likely to spin-up). If your inside wheel does spin-up, there is a likelihood that the other driving wheel will prevent your spin. WLF does not have that luxury.
My suggestion to watch turns isn't based on the probability that he will spin-out, as it is unlikely. My suggestion is based on the fact that IF he does spin-out the inside tire he will do a 180, as there is no other drive wheel to assist him. You never know when and where oil will surface. People with open diffs and limited slips have a safety cushion, whereas people with lockers don't.
#19
03-18-2002, 10:10 PM
cpadpl,
Whereas I agree with your statement as to what happens, I disagree as to why.
You stated with the inside wheel spinning and the outside wheel stationary you have no stability in a turn because the outside wheel (the non-drive wheel) can't keep you strait. With a stationary outside wheel (open diff and to some extent LS) the non-spinning wheel is sitting square to the pavement and resists sideways movement.
In fact what happens with a locker is the inside wheel slips and catches up with the outside wheel and they lock togeather. If you continue with the power then they both slip and you loose all traction and side way stability. With Lockers and both wheels spinning you have no traction (resistance) in any direction so nothing to stop the back from sliding out (inertia).
I am probably not explaining clearly but .....
Whereas I agree with your statement as to what happens, I disagree as to why.
You stated with the inside wheel spinning and the outside wheel stationary you have no stability in a turn because the outside wheel (the non-drive wheel) can't keep you strait. With a stationary outside wheel (open diff and to some extent LS) the non-spinning wheel is sitting square to the pavement and resists sideways movement.
In fact what happens with a locker is the inside wheel slips and catches up with the outside wheel and they lock togeather. If you continue with the power then they both slip and you loose all traction and side way stability. With Lockers and both wheels spinning you have no traction (resistance) in any direction so nothing to stop the back from sliding out (inertia).
I am probably not explaining clearly but .....
#20
03-19-2002, 01:01 AM
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Originally posted by cpadpl
WLF
Just make sure if you have a buddy in the cab with you when you spin out don't even flinch, straighten out and keep driving, and say, "Never seen a truck do that, eh?....Want see what else she can do?"
WLF
Just make sure if you have a buddy in the cab with you when you spin out don't even flinch, straighten out and keep driving, and say, "Never seen a truck do that, eh?....Want see what else she can do?"
" Bet ya didn't know Ford started using tractor brakes"
I guess only someone like me from Kentucky would make a comment like that though.
#21
03-19-2002, 07:49 AM
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WLF
I'm seriously replying in the dark, as I just got up and I don't know if it's my internal fog or your message, but I can't understand really what you are saying. I believe that we are saying the same thing. What I'm saying with an open diff (forget ls, because it is an open diff at slow speeds in a turn) is that both wheels are receiving an equal amount of torque even though the outside wheel is spinning faster than the inside wheel when your vehicle turns, therefore torque and power are applied equally by the wheels to the ground. In short, when you go around a turn with an open diff you are being pushed by two wheels. Should the inside slip on the pavement, you have another one driving you forward. As soon as you hit a turn with your PT, your outside wheel becomes disengaged, just as with the Detroit locker (Powertrax is basically a Detroit, with a few design tweaks to remove the noise). It might as well be that some midgets ran up an instantaneously pulled out your outside axle shaft. When you go through the turn, your inside wheel is the only wheel with any torque and your outside wheel is completely disengaged and just turns freely. Should your inside slip on the pavement, you have no other drive wheel to assist in forward movement.
I'm not sure what you mean by "stationary" wheel. I don't think I indicated that any wheel was not moving. What you are experiencing with your locker "slipping" the inside wheel to catch up to the outside wheel is not exactly what you think. Your inside wheel (on dry pavement) is slipping in the turn because it is receiving too much torque in the turn (remember the long conversation about 50% of drivetrain torque at all times). You gun it around a curve an you are riding up the torque curve on your truck with a 50% split to the drive wheel (which you didn't have before with an open diff). When you come out of the turn, your outside wheel (which was disengaged) slows down revolution-wise to the same speed as the inside wheel and is re-engaged with its 50% split.
I will agree with you on the point about gunning it around the curve and causing both wheels to spin. My warning was that in the beginning of a turn to watch it, because you can lose that one inside wheel. But you are correct in that if you hit a turn fast enough and then punch it, you could be physically out of the turn almost (meaning the PT is re-engaging the outside wheel) and then BOTH wheels are locked, applying torque, and are BOTH spinning.
I'm seriously replying in the dark, as I just got up and I don't know if it's my internal fog or your message, but I can't understand really what you are saying. I believe that we are saying the same thing. What I'm saying with an open diff (forget ls, because it is an open diff at slow speeds in a turn) is that both wheels are receiving an equal amount of torque even though the outside wheel is spinning faster than the inside wheel when your vehicle turns, therefore torque and power are applied equally by the wheels to the ground. In short, when you go around a turn with an open diff you are being pushed by two wheels. Should the inside slip on the pavement, you have another one driving you forward. As soon as you hit a turn with your PT, your outside wheel becomes disengaged, just as with the Detroit locker (Powertrax is basically a Detroit, with a few design tweaks to remove the noise). It might as well be that some midgets ran up an instantaneously pulled out your outside axle shaft. When you go through the turn, your inside wheel is the only wheel with any torque and your outside wheel is completely disengaged and just turns freely. Should your inside slip on the pavement, you have no other drive wheel to assist in forward movement.
I'm not sure what you mean by "stationary" wheel. I don't think I indicated that any wheel was not moving. What you are experiencing with your locker "slipping" the inside wheel to catch up to the outside wheel is not exactly what you think. Your inside wheel (on dry pavement) is slipping in the turn because it is receiving too much torque in the turn (remember the long conversation about 50% of drivetrain torque at all times). You gun it around a curve an you are riding up the torque curve on your truck with a 50% split to the drive wheel (which you didn't have before with an open diff). When you come out of the turn, your outside wheel (which was disengaged) slows down revolution-wise to the same speed as the inside wheel and is re-engaged with its 50% split.
I will agree with you on the point about gunning it around the curve and causing both wheels to spin. My warning was that in the beginning of a turn to watch it, because you can lose that one inside wheel. But you are correct in that if you hit a turn fast enough and then punch it, you could be physically out of the turn almost (meaning the PT is re-engaging the outside wheel) and then BOTH wheels are locked, applying torque, and are BOTH spinning.
Last edited by cpadpl; 03-19-2002 at 07:51 AM.
#22
03-19-2002, 11:23 AM
cpadpl,
If this were true then there would be no need for a locker.
In fact as soon as the inside wheel looses traction the spider gears begin to race around the carrier and no power is sent to the oppisite wheel. The vehicle may keep moving because of inertia but the outside wheel is no longer providing push. It is also not slipping so it can resist sideway movement keeping the rear from sliding out.
In the Locker, as long as the outside wheel is disingaged it to will resist sideways movement. Yes I agree the inside wheel recieves all the work and is more likely to slip but as soon as it does, it catches up with the outside wheel and they reingage. The danger comes when both wheels slip. When slipping they can no longer resist lateral movement and inertia will force the rear of the vehicle to swing out.
In short, when you go around a turn with an open diff you are being pushed by two wheels. Should the inside slip on the pavement, you have another one driving you forward.
In fact as soon as the inside wheel looses traction the spider gears begin to race around the carrier and no power is sent to the oppisite wheel. The vehicle may keep moving because of inertia but the outside wheel is no longer providing push. It is also not slipping so it can resist sideway movement keeping the rear from sliding out.
In the Locker, as long as the outside wheel is disingaged it to will resist sideways movement. Yes I agree the inside wheel recieves all the work and is more likely to slip but as soon as it does, it catches up with the outside wheel and they reingage. The danger comes when both wheels slip. When slipping they can no longer resist lateral movement and inertia will force the rear of the vehicle to swing out.
#23
03-19-2002, 05:57 PM
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WLF,
Excellent point, and you are correct about the flow of power (apparently you did pay attention in physics class), but I wouldn't say all the power. I didn't explain myself clearly enough. What I meant was at least the outside wheel will retain some torque in a turn even with one wheel slipping suddenly. Remember an open diff is a torque equalizing device with a 1:1 bias, therefore even though it takes little torque to spin a wheel fruitlessly, it does take torque, and that same amount of torque is retained in the outside drive wheel (arguably very little, but little is better than none). With a locker in a turn there is never any torque applied to the outside wheel.
With the locker, I agree the true danger is with both wheels slipping, but a non-slipping wheel with power (re/my previous paragraph about the small retained amount of torque in the outside wheel with the open diff) resists lateral movement better than a non-slipping wheel with no power. In summary, this is what I meant to say - It is easier to break loose with a locker than with an open differential for two reasons 1) the drive wheel has more torque than usual and 2) the outside wheel resists lateral movement better with an open differential (unless re-engagement occurs - see below).
And NOW I understand what you are saying about the outside wheel "catching up", told you I wasn't with it. Correct, but what I'm suggesting is that the spin-out can occur well before that equalization will take place.
Excellent point, and you are correct about the flow of power (apparently you did pay attention in physics class), but I wouldn't say all the power. I didn't explain myself clearly enough. What I meant was at least the outside wheel will retain some torque in a turn even with one wheel slipping suddenly. Remember an open diff is a torque equalizing device with a 1:1 bias, therefore even though it takes little torque to spin a wheel fruitlessly, it does take torque, and that same amount of torque is retained in the outside drive wheel (arguably very little, but little is better than none). With a locker in a turn there is never any torque applied to the outside wheel.
With the locker, I agree the true danger is with both wheels slipping, but a non-slipping wheel with power (re/my previous paragraph about the small retained amount of torque in the outside wheel with the open diff) resists lateral movement better than a non-slipping wheel with no power. In summary, this is what I meant to say - It is easier to break loose with a locker than with an open differential for two reasons 1) the drive wheel has more torque than usual and 2) the outside wheel resists lateral movement better with an open differential (unless re-engagement occurs - see below).
And NOW I understand what you are saying about the outside wheel "catching up", told you I wasn't with it. Correct, but what I'm suggesting is that the spin-out can occur well before that equalization will take place.