One rear wheel spinnig
#1
12-13-2002, 01:57 PM
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One rear wheel spinnig
I have a question for those of you who have some inside experience on the LS rear end. I have noticed the last few weeks that every morning while driving to work I pass over a spot in the road where about 1/3 of it is heavily ice covered. As I take off from the stop sign where this ice patch is, only my passenger side rear tire spins. I barely move until I click on 4hi or let the tire spin until I clear the ice. My belief is that the LS rearend clutches should begin to catch and the driverside wheel should take over propelling the truck. It doen't seem to be doing that. Does this situation seem right or do I have something not working correctly in the rear diff? In the past I have been able to mash the gas and broke both tires loose (in wet conditions) while getting on the highway. ANy info would be appreciated.
Thanks
Dave
Thanks
Dave
#3
12-15-2002, 10:07 PM
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Limited slips don't work like that. Both tires will spin as long as they have about the same amount of traction. If one tire has signifigantly less traction than the other then it acts like an open rear end and only that tire will spin. This happens to me all the time off roading in my Xterra with the limited slip. One of the rear tires will come off the ground and start to spin, thus no power going to the other side.
The only way to guarantee that you will get power to both tires at all times is to get a locker. Even then though they shold only be used when you need it. That's why they make them selectable.
The only way to guarantee that you will get power to both tires at all times is to get a locker. Even then though they shold only be used when you need it. That's why they make them selectable.
#4
12-16-2002, 01:06 PM
I disagree with Axle. What he is describing is an open rear. The Limited slip, when working properly will pull you off the ice (as long as one wheel is on pavement) although slower then the rate you are accelerating, thus the acronym "limited slip" as in limiting the amount of slip allowed. The problem is the LS rears that are factory Ford are not very good and the clutches wear out quickly.
An after market like Alburn will work better and provide more traction to the non-slipping wheel, they also last longer.
True lockers, like the Powertrax No Slip locking diff I have (see my signature), provide full traction to the non-slipping wheel. The other day I ran up a road with the right side of the truck running thru 1-foot deep snow, the left wheel was on pavement. I had no problems at all. My truck has 2 wheel drive.
I have put one wheel on solid ice and burned rubber with the other wheel. Did this to show someone who didn't beleave me.
An after market like Alburn will work better and provide more traction to the non-slipping wheel, they also last longer.
True lockers, like the Powertrax No Slip locking diff I have (see my signature), provide full traction to the non-slipping wheel. The other day I ran up a road with the right side of the truck running thru 1-foot deep snow, the left wheel was on pavement. I had no problems at all. My truck has 2 wheel drive.
I have put one wheel on solid ice and burned rubber with the other wheel. Did this to show someone who didn't beleave me.
#5
12-17-2002, 12:52 AM
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No, an open diff will only turn one tire no matter what. A limited slip will provide power to both wheels when both wheels have the same amount of traction. When one is on ice and one is on pavement the one in the ice will spin. Even though the clutches in aftermarket LS are better the same will still hold true if there is a significant difference in traction. A locker, when engaged, will provide power to both wheels no matter the situation, even if one tire is off the ground. Go and so some off roading like this and you learn a few things about axles and traction.
#6
12-17-2002, 01:13 AM
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#7
12-17-2002, 08:44 AM
Axle,
Driving off road does not make one an expert, obviously. The following is cut from the Tech section at Randy’s Ring and Pinion:
Standard / Open Carrier:
Whenever a vehicle negotiates a turn, the outside wheel must travel farther than the inside wheel. In order for this to happen, the outside wheel must turn faster than the inside wheel. This is accomplished by spider gears that allow the outside wheel to turn faster (this can be either the left or the right, but must be the outside wheel) than the ring gear, while the inside wheel turns slower than the ring gear. The net sum of the speed of the two wheels is twice as fast as the ring gear. That means if the outside wheel is turning 2 rpm faster than the ring gear, the inside wheel is turning 2 rpm slower than the ring gear. This differential action is very straightforward in a standard open differential and works great for more than 95% of vehicles on the road today.
When a vehicle with an open or a standard differential encounter a loose traction surface, it directs power to the wheel with the least resistance. The resulting action is the wheel on the loose surface spins while the opposite wheel on the better traction surface stands still or barely transfers power.
The reason a standard open differential works this way is because it is designed to provide equal force to both sides. If the wheel on either side looses traction the other side suffers as well. If for example, the left wheel looses traction and can not provide a resistance force from the left wheel back to the differential side gear, then the right side gear can not transfer a force to the right wheel that is greater than the resistance force of the slipping left wheel. And vice versa. Re-read this a few times and it will make more sense. The main point to remember is that an open differential provides equal power to both sides, NOT equal speed.
An open differential works just fine for 95% of vehicles on the road since most people do not spin their tires often if at all. For those of us who like to burn rubber or go off the dry pavement, there are now too many limited slip and locking differentials to choose from.
Positractions & Limited Slips:
Transmits equal torque to both wheels when driving straight ahead. However when one wheel spins due to loss of traction, a patch of ice, mud, too much throttle, etc., the unit automatically provides more torque to the wheel that has traction.
Recommended for daily driving, works well in ice, rain, mud and snow. However, in situations where absolute lockup is needed, a limited slip is not the best choice due to the fact that limited slips do slip in some situations.
Positraction is a type of limited slip and is a term that is used very loosely as another name or description for limited slip differentials. A positraction is not more aggressive than a limited slip or vice versa. The name "positraction" was used by General Motors for their limited slip differential and the name has been associated with limited slips for many years.
Automatic Lockers:
Lockers, mechanical locking differentials that is, provide 100% transfer of power to both drive wheels. This power can be lost if both wheels spin, but a locking differential will never let one wheel spin free by itself while the other one sits still (unless the unit is broken). Automatic locking differentials are engineered to keep both wheels in a constant drive mode, yet have the ability to unlock to permit a difference in wheel speed while negotiating turns. Recommended for serious off-roaders or serious hot-rodders, can be annoying for everyday driving. The main shortcoming of automatic lockers is the noise or banging and clunking inherent in their design. When getting on or off the throttle they tend to bang or clunk. And they sometimes make noise while disengaging when negotiating a turn. These characteristics are due to the design and a few locker manufacturers have come up with designs that make less noise, but no one has developed a perfectly quiet automatic locker yet. One more effect of lockers that hampers every day use, is, they only drive the inside wheel on a turn which can effect vehicle handling. The specific effects of driving the inside wheel is the vehicle tends to yaw from side to side slightly when negotiating a turn under power. When turning sharply while taking off from stop, the inside wheel will tend to spin easily. This is especially more prominent when taking off on a right turn for two reasons. The torque on the rearend housing due to the driveline torque un-weights the right wheel, and right hand turns are tighter because we drive on the right side of the road and we have to cross over the oncoming lane to make a left hand turn which makes it a lot less sharp.
I have underlined some important points for you.
If you want to learn more you can go here, http://www.diferentials.com/standard-carriers.shtml you will find some very good information on the choices out there.
Driving off road does not make one an expert, obviously. The following is cut from the Tech section at Randy’s Ring and Pinion:
Standard / Open Carrier:
Whenever a vehicle negotiates a turn, the outside wheel must travel farther than the inside wheel. In order for this to happen, the outside wheel must turn faster than the inside wheel. This is accomplished by spider gears that allow the outside wheel to turn faster (this can be either the left or the right, but must be the outside wheel) than the ring gear, while the inside wheel turns slower than the ring gear. The net sum of the speed of the two wheels is twice as fast as the ring gear. That means if the outside wheel is turning 2 rpm faster than the ring gear, the inside wheel is turning 2 rpm slower than the ring gear. This differential action is very straightforward in a standard open differential and works great for more than 95% of vehicles on the road today.
When a vehicle with an open or a standard differential encounter a loose traction surface, it directs power to the wheel with the least resistance. The resulting action is the wheel on the loose surface spins while the opposite wheel on the better traction surface stands still or barely transfers power.
The reason a standard open differential works this way is because it is designed to provide equal force to both sides. If the wheel on either side looses traction the other side suffers as well. If for example, the left wheel looses traction and can not provide a resistance force from the left wheel back to the differential side gear, then the right side gear can not transfer a force to the right wheel that is greater than the resistance force of the slipping left wheel. And vice versa. Re-read this a few times and it will make more sense. The main point to remember is that an open differential provides equal power to both sides, NOT equal speed.
An open differential works just fine for 95% of vehicles on the road since most people do not spin their tires often if at all. For those of us who like to burn rubber or go off the dry pavement, there are now too many limited slip and locking differentials to choose from.
Positractions & Limited Slips:
Transmits equal torque to both wheels when driving straight ahead. However when one wheel spins due to loss of traction, a patch of ice, mud, too much throttle, etc., the unit automatically provides more torque to the wheel that has traction.
Recommended for daily driving, works well in ice, rain, mud and snow. However, in situations where absolute lockup is needed, a limited slip is not the best choice due to the fact that limited slips do slip in some situations.
Positraction is a type of limited slip and is a term that is used very loosely as another name or description for limited slip differentials. A positraction is not more aggressive than a limited slip or vice versa. The name "positraction" was used by General Motors for their limited slip differential and the name has been associated with limited slips for many years.
Automatic Lockers:
Lockers, mechanical locking differentials that is, provide 100% transfer of power to both drive wheels. This power can be lost if both wheels spin, but a locking differential will never let one wheel spin free by itself while the other one sits still (unless the unit is broken). Automatic locking differentials are engineered to keep both wheels in a constant drive mode, yet have the ability to unlock to permit a difference in wheel speed while negotiating turns. Recommended for serious off-roaders or serious hot-rodders, can be annoying for everyday driving. The main shortcoming of automatic lockers is the noise or banging and clunking inherent in their design. When getting on or off the throttle they tend to bang or clunk. And they sometimes make noise while disengaging when negotiating a turn. These characteristics are due to the design and a few locker manufacturers have come up with designs that make less noise, but no one has developed a perfectly quiet automatic locker yet. One more effect of lockers that hampers every day use, is, they only drive the inside wheel on a turn which can effect vehicle handling. The specific effects of driving the inside wheel is the vehicle tends to yaw from side to side slightly when negotiating a turn under power. When turning sharply while taking off from stop, the inside wheel will tend to spin easily. This is especially more prominent when taking off on a right turn for two reasons. The torque on the rearend housing due to the driveline torque un-weights the right wheel, and right hand turns are tighter because we drive on the right side of the road and we have to cross over the oncoming lane to make a left hand turn which makes it a lot less sharp.
I have underlined some important points for you.
If you want to learn more you can go here, http://www.diferentials.com/standard-carriers.shtml you will find some very good information on the choices out there.
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#12
12-18-2002, 07:50 AM
BERVINATOR,
Got away from the point of this post, did you get the information you were looking for?
My intention of posting my beliefs on this matter was in the interest of giving you correct information.
I didn't see this as argument. Others, when having their hard held beliefs threatened, may have thought differently.
If this were an argument, and I won - which by the poster makes me retarded, where then does that place the looser of the argument on the mental scale of life?
I see these forums as a learning tool, A place where valuable information can be gotten for the price of a modem.
Everyone is wrong sometime, I was wrong once, thought I was wrong, but I was wrong ...
Got away from the point of this post, did you get the information you were looking for?
My intention of posting my beliefs on this matter was in the interest of giving you correct information.
I didn't see this as argument. Others, when having their hard held beliefs threatened, may have thought differently.
If this were an argument, and I won - which by the poster makes me retarded, where then does that place the looser of the argument on the mental scale of life?
I see these forums as a learning tool, A place where valuable information can be gotten for the price of a modem.
Everyone is wrong sometime, I was wrong once, thought I was wrong, but I was wrong ...
#13
12-18-2002, 10:58 AM
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I'm not saying you won, or that you are litterally retarded, it's a figure of speach and I think that poster is funny.
I never said off roading made me an expert, I'm just going by how I've seen stuff work first hand. When you do a fair amount of off roading you encounter a lot of situations where you need traction.(Sand, soft dirt, loose rocks, steep climbs, lifting tires off the ground, or any combination thereof) I really have no idea how its supposed to work from a design point of veiw. (I am not an engineer)
And a far as the lockers go, if yours works for you and your happy with it then I'm happy for you. I don't like automatic lockers for the fact that they can be noisy and cause a rough ride on the street. I prefer a selectable locker like the ARB air locker, OX cable locker, or if it ever comes out the Eaton E-locker. These give you the option to either run a normal open diff (LS in the case of the Eaton) or manually switch it over to a locked diff.
I never said off roading made me an expert, I'm just going by how I've seen stuff work first hand. When you do a fair amount of off roading you encounter a lot of situations where you need traction.(Sand, soft dirt, loose rocks, steep climbs, lifting tires off the ground, or any combination thereof) I really have no idea how its supposed to work from a design point of veiw. (I am not an engineer)
And a far as the lockers go, if yours works for you and your happy with it then I'm happy for you. I don't like automatic lockers for the fact that they can be noisy and cause a rough ride on the street. I prefer a selectable locker like the ARB air locker, OX cable locker, or if it ever comes out the Eaton E-locker. These give you the option to either run a normal open diff (LS in the case of the Eaton) or manually switch it over to a locked diff.
#15
12-18-2002, 12:05 PM
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Thanks for the information (or opinions - I'm not quite sure which yet). I wasn't sure where things were heading for awhile there. From WLF's post with the underlined segments it sounds like I have the behavior of the open rear end going on. When the tire is on ice and spinning I am still moving forward slowly. What I am not sure of is if the slow forward motion I do experience is from the wheel with traction or from the spinning wheel eventually getting the job done. Maybe if we have a real winter this year I'll check the exactly opposite condition. Thanks for the responses. I'll keep checking the post until it dies for some more ideas.
Dave
Dave