Some Q's on torsion bars...
#16
04-25-2001 | 11:33 AM
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,002
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From: Oregon
JimW-- most 150/250ld trucks do NOT have the same amount of turns on both sides. This is normal, nothing to do with the bars. Also, the front cvjoints always turn! there are no hubs in the trucks! It is a central axle disconnect system. Do a search on the board for how it works. It does things different in left and right hand turns.
That is why I said max of 1.5" lift. Please read that earlier post. YOu dont read real well there superdave666.
That is great about the 250 bars, but you still cannot lift the truck any higher in the front with the 250 bars than the stockers! Tell me how SUPERDAVE666 with your wisdom that adding the 250 bars will lift the front end higher than the stockers without relocating the front axle? (beyond you dont need as many turns on the adjuster nut, duhh!) This is a miracle! Please tell me!
How many broken bars have there been? Not very many! Most that have broke have been at stock height. So what are your odds if you crank them compared to leaving at stock? About the same, maybe even better! haha
That is why I said max of 1.5" lift. Please read that earlier post. YOu dont read real well there superdave666.
That is great about the 250 bars, but you still cannot lift the truck any higher in the front with the 250 bars than the stockers! Tell me how SUPERDAVE666 with your wisdom that adding the 250 bars will lift the front end higher than the stockers without relocating the front axle? (beyond you dont need as many turns on the adjuster nut, duhh!) This is a miracle! Please tell me!
How many broken bars have there been? Not very many! Most that have broke have been at stock height. So what are your odds if you crank them compared to leaving at stock? About the same, maybe even better! haha
#17
04-26-2001 | 03:26 PM
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Joined: Jan 1999
Posts: 164
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From: Calgary, AB, Canada
Matt90GT-
Yes, I realize that they always turn. My point is that when you are in 2wd, there is no real torsion, or stress that is being put on the CV joints. The only time that happens is when you actually engage 4x4, otherwise they are along for a free ride. Even with a cranked torsion bar, the CV joints are under no real great stress when in 2wd. Even when in 4x4, the CV joints were designed to operate well within stress tolerances throughout the full range of suspension motion. So, in my opinion, I don't think a few twists on the "bars" will really make that much of a difference with respect to the CV's. I've heard of very few guys who have busted a U-joint up front. If anyone has a knowledgeable/engineers view on this, I'd love to hear it.
I just had an alignment done on the front today, and my tires were out. But not, according to the tech, because of the tighter bars which I did the day before (about 2.5 turns on the left, and 2 on the right.) The right was out particularily because of the effects of 105 000 kms of driving and the odd bumping into the curb. No cam kit needed, just some tweaking.
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'97 F-150 4x4 SC SB 4.6L. Riding on Sport King 265/75R16 AT's. Add-a-Leafs & Torsion lift. Side Bars. WMS Intake, TB spacer, and Superchip!
Wish list: 4.10 Gears, Hedman Hedders, 3" body lift, 33x12.5 MT's!!
Yes, I realize that they always turn. My point is that when you are in 2wd, there is no real torsion, or stress that is being put on the CV joints. The only time that happens is when you actually engage 4x4, otherwise they are along for a free ride. Even with a cranked torsion bar, the CV joints are under no real great stress when in 2wd. Even when in 4x4, the CV joints were designed to operate well within stress tolerances throughout the full range of suspension motion. So, in my opinion, I don't think a few twists on the "bars" will really make that much of a difference with respect to the CV's. I've heard of very few guys who have busted a U-joint up front. If anyone has a knowledgeable/engineers view on this, I'd love to hear it.
I just had an alignment done on the front today, and my tires were out. But not, according to the tech, because of the tighter bars which I did the day before (about 2.5 turns on the left, and 2 on the right.) The right was out particularily because of the effects of 105 000 kms of driving and the odd bumping into the curb. No cam kit needed, just some tweaking.
------------------
'97 F-150 4x4 SC SB 4.6L. Riding on Sport King 265/75R16 AT's. Add-a-Leafs & Torsion lift. Side Bars. WMS Intake, TB spacer, and Superchip!
Wish list: 4.10 Gears, Hedman Hedders, 3" body lift, 33x12.5 MT's!!
#18
04-27-2001 | 05:30 PM
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Joined: May 2000
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From: Oregon
Real simple superdave666, you have not relocated the front axle or crossmember!!!
Sure you can twist the adjusters all the way up on the stockers or get the 250 bars and adjust them to the max, but you still have not lowered the axle! Even if you do this, yes you may get a an extra inche lift than 150 bars but at what cost? CV joints!!!! Also do you know that the higher you crank the bars, the narrower the front track becomes? Make a model or jig of the front suspension and you will see that.
So you are not lifting the truck higher than with the stock bars! you are relocating the 250 bars back farther with the relocated crossmember but have you done anthing to the front axle?
NO, i will answer that for you.
Sorry, simple logic here. We can talk all day about lifting IFS and CV joints. There is a max limit. If it is exceeded, premature wear on them is the result. Vibrations is another bad result that may happen.
To lift the suspension, you are limited by the torsion bars. When you lift this way, you increase the CV angle. You also need to understand that there is only so much suspension travel that you have. There is a set amount. Set by the bumpstops and the torsion bars. Basically you can only go so high, then you hit the bumpstop. The bars only allow so much drop travel. When you crank the bars up, you are increasing the amount of upward travel vs. stock height, but decreasing downward travel. Back to the CV joints, you must remember that the outer CV joint has to also turn with the wheels, so there is TONS more wear on the outer vs. the inner joint! When you increase the "static" height of the truck, you increase all the angles on the joint, causing more movement and premature wear! I dont have any formulas for you, but I would bet the amount of movement and wear will increase exponentially when the anlges for the joints are exceeded!
The second way to lift the IFS it to drop the front axle, crossmember and torsion bar crossmember. This is what superlift, rancho, trailmaster, RCD, etc all sell for lifts. You can also adjust the torsion bars with this kind of system, but you still have to mind the angle of the CV joints.
Now for your friends at the dealer, they may not care about the angle! *****! crank that beotch up all the way! They most likely get cost on the parts and can replace the CV joints on their lunch break. Something to think about!
JimW -- it does not matter if they have power, it is the excessive angles that wear them out. Also vibration can be another cause from excessive CV joint angles. With the central axle disconnect system, they are always turning when you are moving. Also as mentioned above the outer joint has to move for the steering also.
now if they did not move like in a hub disconnect system, different story. But when you move, the front CV joints are turning!
[This message has been edited by Matt90GT (edited 04-27-2001).]
Sure you can twist the adjusters all the way up on the stockers or get the 250 bars and adjust them to the max, but you still have not lowered the axle! Even if you do this, yes you may get a an extra inche lift than 150 bars but at what cost? CV joints!!!! Also do you know that the higher you crank the bars, the narrower the front track becomes? Make a model or jig of the front suspension and you will see that.
So you are not lifting the truck higher than with the stock bars! you are relocating the 250 bars back farther with the relocated crossmember but have you done anthing to the front axle?
NO, i will answer that for you.
Sorry, simple logic here. We can talk all day about lifting IFS and CV joints. There is a max limit. If it is exceeded, premature wear on them is the result. Vibrations is another bad result that may happen.
To lift the suspension, you are limited by the torsion bars. When you lift this way, you increase the CV angle. You also need to understand that there is only so much suspension travel that you have. There is a set amount. Set by the bumpstops and the torsion bars. Basically you can only go so high, then you hit the bumpstop. The bars only allow so much drop travel. When you crank the bars up, you are increasing the amount of upward travel vs. stock height, but decreasing downward travel. Back to the CV joints, you must remember that the outer CV joint has to also turn with the wheels, so there is TONS more wear on the outer vs. the inner joint! When you increase the "static" height of the truck, you increase all the angles on the joint, causing more movement and premature wear! I dont have any formulas for you, but I would bet the amount of movement and wear will increase exponentially when the anlges for the joints are exceeded!
The second way to lift the IFS it to drop the front axle, crossmember and torsion bar crossmember. This is what superlift, rancho, trailmaster, RCD, etc all sell for lifts. You can also adjust the torsion bars with this kind of system, but you still have to mind the angle of the CV joints.
Now for your friends at the dealer, they may not care about the angle! *****! crank that beotch up all the way! They most likely get cost on the parts and can replace the CV joints on their lunch break. Something to think about!
JimW -- it does not matter if they have power, it is the excessive angles that wear them out. Also vibration can be another cause from excessive CV joint angles. With the central axle disconnect system, they are always turning when you are moving. Also as mentioned above the outer joint has to move for the steering also.
now if they did not move like in a hub disconnect system, different story. But when you move, the front CV joints are turning!
[This message has been edited by Matt90GT (edited 04-27-2001).]
#19
04-27-2001 | 07:27 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 208
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From: Omaha, NE, USA
All this sounds worth trying.
O.K., stupid question......Do you guys jack the truck up with the wheels off the ground when you crank the bars, or do you do it with the truck setting on the ground?
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1998 F-150 XLT Supercab 4X4
O.K., stupid question......Do you guys jack the truck up with the wheels off the ground when you crank the bars, or do you do it with the truck setting on the ground?
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1998 F-150 XLT Supercab 4X4
- Silver Metallic Clearcoat
- Med. graphite cloth interior
- 4.6 l. V-8
- Off Road Package
- 3.55 Reg. Axle
- Am/FM/CD factory radio
- Captains Chairs
- Borla Split Rear Dual Exhaust
- Bedliner
- Hood deflector
- Ventshades
- Trenz billet #5 low clearance antenna
#22
04-30-2001 | 12:45 AM
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Joined: Jan 1999
Posts: 164
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From: Calgary, AB, Canada
Hey, Jag-
Do you like the TV show JAG? Cool show, the only one I actaully make time for to watch.
It helps to raise the front end up to get some of the weight off the tire. When I did it, I first put lubricating oil on the torsion bolts and let it penetrate for a while. I then put a 2 ton jack under one side of the front lower A-arm crossmember, and lifted it up to where the tire was just resting on the ground. I then placed 2 large blocks under the frame on that side (never can be too careful...). This makes it much easier to give the bolts a twist. I went slowly, doing no more than 1.5 turn at a time on each side, then drove the truck over some bumps, then measured, jacked the sides up and did it the same way. Be very precise with your measurements, do this first with the truck on a level surface, and measure right in front of the middle of the tire to the bottom of the fenderwell. I did all 4 sides to see how everything changed.
There seems a consensus to not go too far, only about 2.5 to 3 turns max over stock.
Matt90GT-
I think we are basically agreeing here. The point is: how much crank is ok before too much stress on the CV's. I think some "cranking" is ok, and most guys on this board who have done it would agree. After all, like I have explained in previous posts, the CV's are designed to operate just fine under full suspension articulation. That includes a full right-left turn, with one or both suspension sides at their top or bottom stops. I don't think that an extra degree of angle on the CV's will make a difference. I carefully looked at the angles before and after I did it, and there was hardly a noticeable change. I only raised the front about 1/2 to 3/4 inch. Others though, have cranked the bars "all the way", and have had no problems after thousands of miles driving. (Not to say I would crank them all the way myself on my own rig). If there is excessive angle, the CV's would wear rapidly.
Now, Matt90GT, like I said, we're basically agreeing here. I'm just saying that they can take SOME "cranking" and quite a bit of deflection/angle before excessive stress happens. This week, I am going to my Ford dealer, and see if they can find out optimum CV angles, then measure my own angles.
------------------
'97 F-150 4x4 SC SB 4.6L. Riding on Sport King 265/75R16 AT's. Add-a-Leafs & Torsion lift. Side Bars. WMS Intake, TB spacer, and Superchip!
Wish list: 4.10 Gears, Hedman Hedders, 3" body lift, 33x12.5 MT's!!
Do you like the TV show JAG? Cool show, the only one I actaully make time for to watch.
It helps to raise the front end up to get some of the weight off the tire. When I did it, I first put lubricating oil on the torsion bolts and let it penetrate for a while. I then put a 2 ton jack under one side of the front lower A-arm crossmember, and lifted it up to where the tire was just resting on the ground. I then placed 2 large blocks under the frame on that side (never can be too careful...). This makes it much easier to give the bolts a twist. I went slowly, doing no more than 1.5 turn at a time on each side, then drove the truck over some bumps, then measured, jacked the sides up and did it the same way. Be very precise with your measurements, do this first with the truck on a level surface, and measure right in front of the middle of the tire to the bottom of the fenderwell. I did all 4 sides to see how everything changed.
There seems a consensus to not go too far, only about 2.5 to 3 turns max over stock.
Matt90GT-
I think we are basically agreeing here. The point is: how much crank is ok before too much stress on the CV's. I think some "cranking" is ok, and most guys on this board who have done it would agree. After all, like I have explained in previous posts, the CV's are designed to operate just fine under full suspension articulation. That includes a full right-left turn, with one or both suspension sides at their top or bottom stops. I don't think that an extra degree of angle on the CV's will make a difference. I carefully looked at the angles before and after I did it, and there was hardly a noticeable change. I only raised the front about 1/2 to 3/4 inch. Others though, have cranked the bars "all the way", and have had no problems after thousands of miles driving. (Not to say I would crank them all the way myself on my own rig). If there is excessive angle, the CV's would wear rapidly.
Now, Matt90GT, like I said, we're basically agreeing here. I'm just saying that they can take SOME "cranking" and quite a bit of deflection/angle before excessive stress happens. This week, I am going to my Ford dealer, and see if they can find out optimum CV angles, then measure my own angles.
------------------
'97 F-150 4x4 SC SB 4.6L. Riding on Sport King 265/75R16 AT's. Add-a-Leafs & Torsion lift. Side Bars. WMS Intake, TB spacer, and Superchip!
Wish list: 4.10 Gears, Hedman Hedders, 3" body lift, 33x12.5 MT's!!
#23
04-30-2001 | 03:15 PM
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#24
05-01-2001 | 01:16 AM
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From: Oregon
#26
05-01-2001 | 11:32 PM
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Joined: Apr 2001
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From: Stanwood, WA
I just bought my 98 F-150 4x4 used with 27,000 miles on it. How do i know if the past owner has already "cranked" the torsion bars? It looks like the bolts have a long ways left to go. They are probably only 1/4 of the way in. I don't want to turn the bolts in farther if the previous owner already did it!
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1998 F-150 XLT 4x4 SC 4.6L Auto, Class III hitch, Pioneer Premiere deck, Boston speakers
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1998 F-150 XLT 4x4 SC 4.6L Auto, Class III hitch, Pioneer Premiere deck, Boston speakers
#28
05-02-2001 | 03:20 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 67
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From: Brentwood, TN / Auburn, AL
Alright. Let's say I go out and push the front end of my truck up in the air 1.5" with the torsion bars. 2 Questions:
1. How bad is the ride quality of my truck going to suck?
2. How do i get the back end to be level with the front end. Naturally if it is level to begin with, then after the 1.5" adjustment, there will be a rear sag, correct?...MEEK
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1997 Black 4x4 F-150 XLT 4.6L 285/75/16 Bridgestone Dueler A/T's Eagle Alloy Wheels, K&N Airfilter, Flowmaster Exhaust, Dual tips off of one pipe. Nerf Bars, Brush guard, 2 Ralley Lights, Sony X-plod head unit, Jensen 500 watt amp, Sony X-Plod 10" Sub
sooner or later: a lift and bigger mud terrain tires
meek47@f150driver.com
1. How bad is the ride quality of my truck going to suck?
2. How do i get the back end to be level with the front end. Naturally if it is level to begin with, then after the 1.5" adjustment, there will be a rear sag, correct?...MEEK
------------------
1997 Black 4x4 F-150 XLT 4.6L 285/75/16 Bridgestone Dueler A/T's Eagle Alloy Wheels, K&N Airfilter, Flowmaster Exhaust, Dual tips off of one pipe. Nerf Bars, Brush guard, 2 Ralley Lights, Sony X-plod head unit, Jensen 500 watt amp, Sony X-Plod 10" Sub
sooner or later: a lift and bigger mud terrain tires
meek47@f150driver.com
#29
05-02-2001 | 03:53 PM
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Joined: Feb 2001
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I cranked my torsion bars last weekend. I turned them slightly less than three turns and I only got ~7/8" lift at the front wheels. Also I used a 2ft breaker bar and it turned with ease - one handed. And yes I turned the bolts clockwise (tightening them). The truck hasn't been jacked up but I did drive it immediately afterwords and have been driving it all week. So my question is, how are people getting 1+" of lift with two-three turns on the torsion bars?
kev
kev
#30
05-02-2001 | 08:33 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 337
Likes: 1
From: Colorful Colorado
I ended up turning mine about 4 turns for a 1" lift up front when I bought it new. After about a year the truck had dropped about 1/2" so I turned them up another 3 turns for a total of 1.5" over stock.
7 turns total - the truck sits totally level and now the front doesn't feel so squishy. It finally feels like the front and rear have the same spring response, instead of the undersprung-front/oversprung-back like it used to be.
It looks killer now compared to a run-of-the-mill F-150 and it is about 4" (!!) taller overall than a brand new Chevy supercab type pickup with the 4x4 off-road package that I parked next to at Home Depot yesterday!! Grin!!
By the way, I was measuring from the ground to the fender arch, and I made sure all the tires were inflated properly and the truck was on level ground. Good luck.
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Howie's Effie
Amazon Green 2000 F150 XLT 5.4L 4x4 ORP Supercab Flareside
Captains Chairs, Electronic Shift, Rear Slider, Keyless Entry, Cab Steps, 3.55 L/S
Mods: Superchip, WMS Velocity Tube, Flowmaster Force II, Scorpion Spray in Liner, fogs + hibeams (thanks FedExPilot)
7 turns total - the truck sits totally level and now the front doesn't feel so squishy. It finally feels like the front and rear have the same spring response, instead of the undersprung-front/oversprung-back like it used to be.
It looks killer now compared to a run-of-the-mill F-150 and it is about 4" (!!) taller overall than a brand new Chevy supercab type pickup with the 4x4 off-road package that I parked next to at Home Depot yesterday!! Grin!!
By the way, I was measuring from the ground to the fender arch, and I made sure all the tires were inflated properly and the truck was on level ground. Good luck.
------------------
Howie's Effie
Amazon Green 2000 F150 XLT 5.4L 4x4 ORP Supercab Flareside
Captains Chairs, Electronic Shift, Rear Slider, Keyless Entry, Cab Steps, 3.55 L/S
Mods: Superchip, WMS Velocity Tube, Flowmaster Force II, Scorpion Spray in Liner, fogs + hibeams (thanks FedExPilot)