Just got new tires last week--60,000 miles on the OEM stock Goodyear Wranglers 255/R60 16's. Bought new Michelin Cross Terrains, and I love them. Quiet and stick to the road better.

Now to my question. The old set of tires were worn on the inside edge, sure sign of misalignment. Took it to the local Ford dealer for an alignment. Quoted $80. Fine. Do it.

After about a half hour, the guy finds me to tell me I need a camber kit installed for another $120. I have never been in any major accident, I drive my truck like it was fragile, and now you tell me that the frame is bent so that I need a special kit to bring my wheels into proper (camber) alignment? WTF? Show me.

So, the guy leads me out to the garage, the tech mounts the instrumentation on the wheels and shows me that my camber reading is -0.5 degrees out of perfect, and tells me verbally that spec is -0.2 degrees. I think that a tire less than a degree out of vertical cannot really be a problem so I say no to the camber bolts. The dealer service rep is sticking to his story, but does what I tell him. I leave with an $80 wheel alignment and a printout from the alignment computer saying that yes my camber is -0.5, but that min is -1.0 and max is +0.4, nominal is -0.3. So, it seems to me that I was in spec all along. Am I reading that right?

From other posts, I see that the camber bolts cost about $40. How does the guy get off charging $120 P&L to install? The wheel is off anyway, no more than an extra 5 minutes, isn't it?

Did I make the right decision? The more I think about it, the more I think that this is one of those things this dealer does to increase their revenue: guy comes in for an alignment, and if he doesn't have camber bolts already installed, charge him for some whether he needs them or not. Turns an $80 service into a $200 service for the cost of 4 bolts and 5 minutes time.

Am I thinking right, or was I foolish to turn down these bolts? My truck is pretty near stock, as you can see by my sig.

 

Whether the wheels are off or not doesn't matter. They charge by labor hour. The parts from Ford are approximately $50 as they're only charging about an hour or so of labor.

 

Yes, I understand that they charge by the hour. I also understand that they charge by the hour in some book on how long it takes. I still think that charging $120 for that is too much, and unnecessary anyway, as it appears my wheels were pretty much near the center of the the tolerance. Am I interpreting that right? It looks to me that they were selling me something I clearly didn't need.

When we went back to the garage, the tech let slip that "pretty much they all need 'em". Then they needed it off the lot when I bought the truck. I just got 60,000 good miles out of the stock tires, so tell me again why I need them?

My wheels were out in the "toe" dimension, as well. It is really clear to me that being out due to "toe" can really wear tires badly, because they have to skid sideways slightly to rotate. This problem was the reason my tires wore out on the inside edge.

But, these are pnuematic tires! If camber is out slightly, you will still have even pressure across the contact area. Uneven wear would be nearly unnoticable, and in any event no more than the amount of out of camber. I was apparently less than 0.3 degrees from optimum spec and well within their own tolerances. That is considerably less than a sixteenth of an inch in 8 inches. So even if the out of camber state caused an equivalent amount of uneven wear, one side of an 8 inch wide tire would only wear less than a sixteenth of an inch more.

And the truck would still roll straight and true, and there would be no other side effects. I cannot see why my truck 'needed' a camber adjustment when I was already in spec. Do you? Anyone understand this differently?

 

The U$120 for installing the bolts is a average price. U$50 for the hardware (4 bolts, 8 concave washers, 4 regular washers and 4 lock washers.) Labor would take a little less than 1 hour so U$70 is reasonable for a dealer.
The alignment is added as a seperate charge.

Fritz

 

If the work order was "install camber kit" then I could see $120. but only barely. However, that is not the point. It looks to me like they were completely unnecessary. Am I missing something?

TS

 

If you think that your tires wear evenly and it drives fine, all will be fine. If you have problems, consider the kit. Were they trying their normal dealer BS???....Of course they were; that's why "pretty much they all need 'em" was said. If you trust their measurement and you want complete adjustability, install the kit. If you want to save money, go to NAPA, install the kit yourself, and then take it to an alignment shop and get an alignment quote up front. You don't need to have a bent frame for this measurement to be off. Without adjustability, they all have a "RANGE" of acceptance from the factory.

 

Thanks for all your responses. I am pretty satisfied that the camber kit was not necessary. I am wondering if the tech could have possibly adjusted it any better with the kit!

There is a place in the world for a camber kit, but on a stock truck/tire combo, where the measurement is already well within tolerance, adjusting the camber that finely just has zero return on investment.

With 20 inch rims, or maybe with extra wide tires, or lowering kits, raising kits, bent frames, maybe with such things a camber adjustment might be called for, but this parameter has to be way out of spec to matter on a stock arrangement.

Again, thanks.

 

IF you're comfortable keeping it that way, then by all means, keep it. Is it really necessary? Possible not. I don't see why they would be necessary with 20's, but they are typically need when doing a lift, a drop or after major suspension work.

Now, what is a pneumatic tire?

 

EDIT: spelling
Steve,

You caught the shop in a quandary. Do not install the cam bolts and risk you rejecting the alignment because it was not bang on spec. Or tell you that you needed a kit? I would have advised you that no adjustment was possible but that you were within spec and ask if you wanted the extra expense of a kit just in case. Probably 99% of the time people get the kit. Now if the truck pulled or was not to your liking all they could do is install the bolts and adjust. You were the victim of poor salesmanship. The teck is just that a teck not a salesman. I bet he was only doing what he was told to do. BTW it takes ½ hr to install the bolts, if you are slow.

Regards

JMC

 

Thanks, JMC. Your explanation is more charitable, and I like to think more probably true.

Suds, a pneumatic tire is one filled with air. As you know a basic principle of physics is that gas (air) exerts a force equal in all directions.

The forces acting on the bottom of a tire are the air pressure in the tire on the inside, the upward force of the road on the bottom face, and any bending force that the sidewalls can exert. Obviously it is a bit complicated, but generally speaking, what is holding the truck off the ground is the air pressure in the tires which "sandwiches" the tire tread between the wheel and the ground.

If the tire is mounted out of true vertical camber, then all that means is that one side of the tire is slightly lower than the other side. My calculations in a previous post apply; the amount my wheels were out would have to be less than 1/16 inch, more like 1/32 or less. However, because tires are pneumatic (and not solid rubber), the forces on the bottom of the tire redistribute such that there is virtually no difference in the forces on the tire tread within the range of cambers we are talking about. Because there is no difference in the force distribution, there will not be any significant wear difference either. Even if there were (and I claim that there would not be) the wear so induced could only be as much as the camber, in this case so small it would be difficult to measure.

Yesterday I saw an Excursion take a hard dip at a little too fast speed. You could see the front wheels travel up and down several inches, and through many degrees of camber as that truck bounced through the dip. From that you can see that the camber that the wheel has when it contacts the road actually goes through quite a wide variation (several degrees, maybe 10 or more) just while riding down the road, and may change well within the range we are talking about just on the basis of having a loaded truck rather than unloaded.

Therefore, I cannot get worried about 0.3 degrees of camber, especially when that is still within the manufacturer's specifications.

I said that a 20 inch wheel might possibly be more sensitive to camber effects than my 16 inch wheels because I imagine that the sidewall stiffness, or other geometric effects of such a low profile tire might work to make my generallization (that the pressure force distribution on the tread through a range of cambers is the same) less true.

The "toe" alignment dimension is altogether a different matter. When your vehicle is out of "toe" alignment, it means your wheels are not both pointing in the same direction. Because your tires' width are significant compared to their height, the whole tire has to twist or drag just to rotate as you roll down the road. Being out of alignment even a little bit means wear problems, and any significant out of alignment in this dimension will cause uneven wear in a hurry. The uneven wear on my original tires was no doubt due to the toe misalignment, which is noticably corrected now. It is much easier to steer a vehicle when the toe is in alignment.

TS

 

My vote is that you have a tie rod end that is worn and is giving when under load,thus the inside cut. Camber bolts are a piece of cake to put on...It's when you try to make the adjustment and have it hold while you tighten down the bolts that can be challenging.

 

You know, I really don't know if my tie rods are worn or not, but I doubt they are worn much. Once they aligned my wheels (the toe was out), it really is much easier to steer. Ergo, the problem is fixed...hopefully another 60K out of my new tires.

TS

 

TexasSteve,

No flames intended at all here, but your reference to seeing an Excursion hit a big bump was not an accurate representation of a '97-up F150. Our modern F150s have true independent front suspension with upper and lower A-arms, and therefore camber changes with up and down wheel travel should only be minor. The Excursion (2wd), along with the 2wd F250 and F350 still uses Ford's ancient Twin I-beam front suspension, which undergoes fairly radical camber changes with up and down wheel travel.

SM

 

Just a thought but it is a concern. You have just blown any warrenty on the tires and the alignment you just paid for. Most tire companies require proper alignment be maintained for a warranty to be valid. Since you truck is not technically in-spec (according to the dealership) you truck is not aligned. Next, since the delaership could not properly align the truck (because the owner, you, said no to a part needed to properly align the truck), in 6 monthes if the alignment is out the delearship doesn't have to warrenty it because it didn't meet spec when it left. I would install the cam bolt yourself and then have the truck re-aligned. All vehicle have to be aligned at some point, just most come with some sort of cam bolt already installed. Just a thought.

 

With all due respect, my truck is in alignment. It is not bang on the center of the range, but it is well within specification tolerance by their own measure. I have their printout. So any back pedeling by tire manufacturers or the dealer or Ford wouldn't hold water.

Again, it is the "toe" alignment that causes most of the problems. If the left and right wheels are not pointing the same direction when driving straight, or in a turn they are not pointing in the proper but slightly different directions, uneven wear results and quickly. The tire has to twist on its contact area to turn.

Besides, the technical issue involved is such that the amount of camber I am only slightly off by CANNOT cause uneven wear.

By the way, thanks for the info, SM regarding the difference between the F150 suspension and the Excursion. I believe you are right that the Excusion camber travel is much more than the f150's, but the fact that this camber adjustment is required when raising or lowering your truck means that the camber does fluctuate with the height off the ground.

TS