Thanks for the reply Sheen. No offense taken at all. I was unaware of Magnacharger and their warranty. I assume that this is an Eaton supercharger? What I was saying about the roots and Lyshom screw type units was that their boost is constant throughout the entire rpm band and that the centrifugal keeps increasing boost with rpm. What would be very helpful to understand the efficiency numbers would be to compare a compressor map of an Eaton unit to Vortech's (which are available). The efficiency on the Eaton unit is somewhat poor (55% as compared to a Vortech unit that starts at 70%) right as soon as boost starts, but starts dropping off as the rpm's increase. It takes more horsepower to spin the unit as the rpm's increase. The numbers I had posted for the Vortech are very good for any supercharger and are on par for a turbocharger as well. I completely agree that the roots and screw units feel better down below, but the efficiency is lacking in the middle and upper rpm band which equates to hotter discharge temperatures (creating detonation issues) and lower overall horsepower numbers. Again, I am not trying to flame anyone, just wanted to help answer some misconceptions. Before you buy anyones supercharger, make them show you a compressor map of their supercharger to show you how efficient or inefficient it actually is. If they are saying this information is top secret and cannot be released, I would be very skeptical. Take care all and talk to you soon. Almost forgot, at your elevation, to increase boost with our unit, just go to a smaller supercharger pulley to increase boost. As long as the supercharger is "correctly sized" to your application, it should work fine. One last thing, do not ever buy into the misconception that with superchargers "one size fits all, just spin it faster or slower to get your boost". An efficiency island in a supercharger is not all that wide and if you are operating your supercharger ouside of this island it becomes very inefficient. See ya.

[This message has been edited by Steven_B (edited 06-03-2000).]

 

Vortech is the "best" supercharger? What defines "best"?

Best at producing low-end torque? No.

If Vortechs are 'the best', why did Ford choose Eaton for the Lightning?

Steve, and everyone else on the list, have you ever compared actual rear wheel dyno charts from Kenne Bell and Magnacharger to Vortech (or Paxton, Pro Charger, etc)? Take a look, all the information is out there, and so are the efficiency and horsepower draw charts. Peak horsepower from the Vortech kits I have seen is less than the Magnacharger even though the Vortech runs more boost! Kenne Bell is close behind, and both KB and MC kits make lots more low rpm power.

You can argue efficiency all you want because you're trying to sell your superchargers. The fact of the matter is Vortechs make less power for the money (and all the kits are very similar in price, about 3,000 to 4,000 dollars.). and especially low end power!

and to be blunt i don't care even if one brand makes more peak power than the next, my truck is heavey and when I put my foot down I want it to move NOW, not once it gets to 2500 or 3000 rpms.

Steve, I will give you credit for admitting you work at Vortech. Someone asked Frank Ryan where he worked since he seemed to know alot of details about the Magnacharger kit that an ordinary person would not know (he tried to say was a bad kit and that Pro Charger was better for some reason), but he would not answer... he even admitted he put one on a customers truck.

Well Frank????

 

First of all, I'm glad to hear that Kenne Bell chargers aren't as bad as once presumed (rebuild every 15K miles)--just goes to show that it's reader beware. Kenne Bell goes back onto my consideration list.

Hey truckn--
You mentioned that "all the info is out there". I assume that you have all the info. For those of us who are too lazy to get the info ourselves, could you give us a breakdown on all the chargers you mentioned? I think that would settle the question of who's better for good. A side by side comparison would be hard to argue against either way. Thanks.


------------------
'99 XLT 5.4L 4x4ORP 3.73, White Supercab Flareside - Grill Guard, Superchip, Gibson cat-back, K&N FIPK

 

Did not mean to start anything on the BBS. We all have our opinions and I will keep mine to myself. I did not come on the board to get flamed, just to try and educate people with facts, not marketing hype and mistruths. How may other supercharger maufacturers come onto the board to help answer questions, especially on their own time. Take care all. See ya.

 

Hey to all! Well, I finally got the Magnason installed and I must say, IMHO, that it is well worth the cost! She "feels" much more lighter, hence the added power. I know that she's not a speed demon, but for being the daily driver w/ 2 kids on board, she feels much less bulky than before! And as far as I can tell, mpg has not suffered at all and may have improved at least 1 mpg.

Anyway, I have had experience in the past with Vortech on my '94 Z28 and I would recommend it to anyone who wants to hop up their Camaro/Mustang. If there was a roots/whipple type setup for them I still would not have got one due to the instant boost. Traction on them is already bad enough, that would have just added to the problem, unless of course if you ran on slicks, but who can drive that setup to work everyday?? IMHO, I would stick with the roots/whipple for ANY truck, due to there size and weight. They need the added power right at the start and I am pleased to say that I finally have that!

Just so everyone knows, I chose Magnason over Kenne Bell, due to the Eaton supercharger, proven in the Lightning, and due to the intercooled system incorporated into it. I have not had any detonation problems as of yet. Kenny Brown did a very professional job with the install, although I paid for it out the butt! The whole system is stock looking!

Two things I will need to get is a Superchip, need much better shift points, and a larger Pro M 77mm MAF. I plan on fabricating a larger intake system due to the 75mm TB and MAF. I will report my progress as they occur.

I hope this helps some of you guys out! Good Luck!! Oh yeah, headers are getting installed tomorrow, what a RUSH.......!!

------------------
'98 EB Expy
5.4L 3.73 LS
Magnason/Eaton Supercharger
Gibson catback
IPD Rear swaybar
Bilstein Shocks
Hood Guard
Manik Grill and Rear Tail Guards
PIAA Foglights
Stull Billet Grill and Bumper Inserts

Have, but not installed...

75mm Edelbrock TB(What the hell...?!)
JBA Jet Black Ceramic Headers

"Its Sooo Big...Its Gotta to be Blown!"



[This message has been edited by Way2Big (edited 06-05-2000).]

 

OUCH!.......OH!.......OUCH!

Those hornets are stingin' now!!!

------------------
98 F-150 XLT 4X4 ORP Super Cab Short Bed, 4.6, Auto. Superchip, Gibson sing. cat-back, Airaid, 80/100w German head lamps. Warn HS9500i winch with semi hidden mount. Wrangler dual battery kit with red & yellow top Optima batteries. Torsion bars cranked up 2 turns. Needs one more door and a lot more power. I think I need to talk to Mr. Whipple.

 

Steve B if vortechs are so great why doesn't any OEM use them? Why doesn't vortech offer a self contained oil system? Why does everyone running a vortech including steeda lower the rear end ratio?

 

Steve, I did not flame you in any way. You STATED that the Vortech is the best supercharger, but now that I have asked you to simply tell us WHY, you won't answer.

Draw your own conclusions, people.

Maybe I'm a simpleton but I'd just like to hear someone explain how a charger with very little low end torque increase (and that Ford chose not to use) can possibly be "the best".

Steve, you even said that "roots and screw units feel better down below, but the efficiency is lacking in the middle and upper rpm band which equates to hotter discharge temperatures (creating detonation issues) and lower overall horsepower numbers."..... Guess what, they don't just "feel better" as you put it, they MAKE MORE POWER DOWN LOW. And guess what else, saying "roots and screw blowers... [snip]... create detonation issues" is a chickens**t way of bringing up the subject of detonation. Does the Kenne Bell kit detonate? In some cases I've heard of guys with detonation problems, but not every kit and besides it's not intercooled. Does the intercooled Magnusson kit detonate? Nope.

And what's this garbage about "lower overall horsepower numbers"??? Get a grip, that's an out-and-out lie. I found hp numbers on Vortech's website, and Dynojet numbers on Vortechs in an article about Kenny Brown, and dyno charts from Magnacharger's website and flyers, and from Kenne Bell's catalog. Vortech is the least powerful and makes very litle torque up to about 4,000. Steve, in all seriousness, please explain to me why this is good. Whoops, sorry - why this is "the best".

Oh yeah, Steve DID explain why a Vortech is inferior when he said "An efficiency island in a supercharger is not all that wide and if you are operating your supercharger ouside of this island it becomes very inefficient. ". That must be why Vortechs make only so-so peak power and no low-end... the Autorotor, Eaton, and Magnuson websites DO show the input power, efficiency, and flow, and both models (eaton and autorotor) have very WIDE operating range of efficieny unlike a Vortech.

Steve, this is not a flame, these are legitimate questions. You made some very definitive statements. Now back it up.

 

Way2Big,

I am glad to hear that your Magnacharger installation went well and that you are pleased with the results. I myself have been doing some research as to which supercharger would be the best for my application. I as well, have come to the conclusion that the Magnacharger kit is the right one for me for the following reasons:

1. 90% of the time spent driving, I usually dont push my engine over 4,000 RPM.

This fact alone would preclude the use of a centrifugal blower, due to the boost being produced at higher RPM's not lower RPM's. I guess you could overdrive the blower with a smaller pully to get boost at a lower RPM, however, on occasion when you did push your engine to 5200 RPM @ WOT you run the risk of impeller failure.

2. The magnacharger kit uses the Eaton superchager which is the only one used by almost all major car manufacturors for OEM applications. (ie Ford Lightning, Pontiac Bonneville, Ford SC Thunderbird, Mercedes SLK).

I personally own a 92 Pontiac Bonneville SSEi with 104K miles on it, and I am just now looking at having my blower rebuilt due to mild bearing noise. My car has been through 8 Arizona summers where the temperatures regularly reach 115 during the day and 100 at night. This, in my mind, is the worst conditions you could subject a blower to and it has never failed or given me any trouble.

3. A intercooler is the best way to increase your adiabatic efficiency of your blower and the Magnacharger Kit includes it.

I have seen a lot of posts about intercooled -vs- non-intercooled, and the answer comes down to detonation. The worst thing that can happen to a supercharged engine is detonation or pinging. This occurs when your air fuel mixture ignites prematurely and starts to expand when your piston has not yet reached the top of its compression stroke. Add to this, the fact that you have increased the oxygen content of your air fuel mixture with your supercharger and you have a receipe for burnt pistons, broken/bent rods, crank bearing failure, and the list goes on. Personally living in Phoenix, I have no other choice but to use intercooling as the intake temperatures alone would stress my engine. This would preculde the use of a Kenne Bell blower.

I am not saying that other supercharger manufacturors are bad, most of them are excellent, but it all depends upon your application, driving conditions and habits.


Good Luck To All!
------------------
1998 RED F250-LD EC 4X4 Lariat, 5.4L, 3.73LS, 4WL ABS,
LOAD LVL SUS, TOWING PKG, SUPER COOLING PKG, 6 CD
CHANGER. GREY LEATHER INTERIOR.

MODS: PACESETTER TFX CAT BACK EXHAUST
AIRAID INTAKE SYSTEM
SUPERCHIP FLIP CHIP
MAG-HYTEC DIFFERENTIAL COVER
NAPA CERAMIC BRAKE PADS
BFG ALL/TA KO LT26575R16
FORD MOLDED MUD GUARDS
DURALINER W/ BULL RING TIE DOWNS
MAX SUPER WHITE HEADLIGHT & FOG BULBS
DASHMAT DASH COVER

FUTURE MODS: JBA HEADERS
STULL BILLET GRILLS
MAGNACHARGER BLOWER




[This message has been edited by bigred4x4 (edited 06-06-2000).]

 

I really do not want to get into an arguement about this. I have my opinions and so do other people. I have worked for Vortech for going on eight years and we have done the testing. I have seen many different applications and superchargers and have seen the side-by-side comparisons. We have an SAE spec. supercharger dyno, chassis dyno and engine dyno to run superchargers on and we know how efficient are unit is. I also know that there are compressor maps for Eaton units for you to compare against. I prefer Vortech units and you prefer Eaton units which is fine. This thread is getting to heated and that was not my intention. Again, I came here because I just bought a new Expedition and wanted to help people out to make decisions based on facts and get information for after-market parts for my new truck. Take care all and anyone that owns a Vortech unit that has questions can e-mail me at work and I can help you out <sboychuck@vortechsuperchargers.com>. Thanks all.

[This message has been edited by Steven_B (edited 06-06-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Steven_B (edited 06-06-2000).]

 

I definitely agree with DynoDan!

I want to stay out of the controversy, but I do feel I need to mention the fact that the stock intake is not well suited for supercharging, especially at higher boost levels.

The long runners work well for normally aspirated engines. To keep it simple, when force-fed, long runners generate induction pulses which actually inhibit flow.

In effect, you will see boost spikes as high as 10psi, where the optimal range for a positive displacement compressor is 6-8psi. Exhaust work lessens the effect, but does not eliminate it.

 

Sounds like we need an independent party to compare the various S/C kits for 4.6 and 5.4 trucks. I would be more than happy to test the kits out there, just send them my way..........he he.

I work at Dynojet Research and have been tinkering with S/C vehicles for some time. I see what works and what doesn't, and HP for dollar spent ratios always lean towards forced induction (not considering nitrous). One thing I will say, intercooling works, especially air to air for street applications. All the kits are going to be a good kick in the pants, and for trucks it's hard to beat positive displacement blowers. I think the ultimate combo would be an Autorotor compressor (KB 2200) with an air to air intercooler for truck applications. What about turbos, now there is where some serious gains could be made! In case you are wondering, I have had a Vortech, KB 1500, and 2 different ATI's. They are all quality kits, and each has its advantages. My P600B ATI has over 50,00 miles (Mustang application.) on it without a problem.....very happy here! Choose wisely, ask lots of questions, light the fire and burn the tires! The beauty of this site is the information that is shared to benefit us all in making sound decisions!

------------------
2000 F-150 XLT Styleside
5.4,4x4,Reg.Cab, 120" WB, White, Sport Pkg., Bell Tech lowering kit, Gen II Lightning Wheels, B'stone 285 60 18 tires
198 rwhp, 266 trq
dwh@dynojet.com